Do you think people in East Germany bought Trabant because they wanted such a car?Enk Projektet said:Since there is no obligation to buy, of course, you have a choice....if construction companies couldn't sell due to poor construction, I guess they would change quickly....
And I guess they were free to refrain from buying.
What was there to choose from?Mikael_L said:
Smart alek
· Västra Götalands
· 11 150 posts
That's kind of what I was getting at with my Gothenburg example. There weren't always that many options...Enk Projektet said:
At least if you wanted to "build" new. There weren't many second-hand houses with single-step sealed facades...
(But the city is still growing, so the secondary market can't cover the need either.)Great, you got the point ...Enk Projektet said:
Choosing between buying a house with a questionable solution or not is at least not a difficult decision for me....
Just because construction companies do things a certain way doesn't mean you have to buy....whether you do so or not is up to each individual.....
For me, it's totally okay to try new ideas, but at the same time, one must also take the consequences....
Just because construction companies do things a certain way doesn't mean you have to buy....whether you do so or not is up to each individual.....
For me, it's totally okay to try new ideas, but at the same time, one must also take the consequences....
Nah, you can probably stay where you live. Most people can.
Otherwise, there’s surely a rental apartment to find in some unattractive million-program area in some unattractive city not too many miles away.
And the East German could always buy a bike instead.
But I still agree with you; I wouldn’t buy a house with a questionable technical solution either.
But how do you know which solutions are questionable?
How would the buyers of single-step sealed facade houses in 2004 know that it was a bad solution?
(It’s a slightly different question, but anyway ...)
Otherwise, there’s surely a rental apartment to find in some unattractive million-program area in some unattractive city not too many miles away.
And the East German could always buy a bike instead.
But I still agree with you; I wouldn’t buy a house with a questionable technical solution either.
But how do you know which solutions are questionable?
How would the buyers of single-step sealed facade houses in 2004 know that it was a bad solution?
(It’s a slightly different question, but anyway ...)
Warning! This is going to be very off topic, but the Trabant was one of the few cars that had no problems with rust! The guys on the assembly line in Zwickau had kaizen as their guiding principle, which can be seen here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBsPFI--muo&feature=fvstMikael_L said:
If against all odds you didn't like the Trabant, you could always wish for a Wartburg.
The problem was - and is - that the average person who buys such a house (thinking of an area where a major builder constructs heaps of this type of house, all at once, and where the buyer is not involved in the construction as such) probably doesn't have the time, interest, or knowledge to delve into building technology. That's managed by the construction company.... In other words; people had no reason to even consider whether it was a okay or questionable solution....Enk Projektet said:
As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, people care more about interior finishes, kitchen appliances, and bathrooms than whether the facade cladding is moisture-proof or not. In the same situation, I would naturally have assumed that the builder constructed the house in a good and safe way.....
Smart alek
· Västra Götalands
· 11 150 posts
Exactly, it's a variant of so-called bike-shed debates. You can have an opinion on finishes etc. without much knowledge. Most people who grew up in houses surely have experience of how a carpet wears compared to a wooden floor (just to take a possible example). But if you haven't owned a house before and for a long time (and not a new one), it's harder to spontaneously have a well-founded opinion on the facade's moisture protection, especially since it needed to go against what both SP and the sellers said was true.ToRy said:
The so-called "thin plaster" had problems as early as 1994, according to the Moisture Handbook from Svensk Byggtjänst:
Page 144-145
The experience with thin plaster on brick and lightweight concrete is significantly worse. Water that has penetrated the thin plaster or cracks in the plaster layer has difficulty evaporating.... Using modern thin plasters during the renovation of old, weak lime plasters or rendered wooden houses often results in failures. New thick plaster or lime wash is safer.
...
Particularly thin plasters with water-repellent additives have caused frost damage on bricks
...
When insulating with foam plastic, the foam plastic creates such a high vapor resistance that the foam plastic forms the tightest layer. This means that the risk of trapped construction moisture or remaining rain moisture must be considered
...
Advice... Generally choose thick plaster
Page 144-145
The experience with thin plaster on brick and lightweight concrete is significantly worse. Water that has penetrated the thin plaster or cracks in the plaster layer has difficulty evaporating.... Using modern thin plasters during the renovation of old, weak lime plasters or rendered wooden houses often results in failures. New thick plaster or lime wash is safer.
...
Particularly thin plasters with water-repellent additives have caused frost damage on bricks
...
When insulating with foam plastic, the foam plastic creates such a high vapor resistance that the foam plastic forms the tightest layer. This means that the risk of trapped construction moisture or remaining rain moisture must be considered
...
Advice... Generally choose thick plaster
I find a bit more useful information in the Moisture Handbook about water-repellent additives (mentioned in my post above):
Pages 48-50
Water-repellent impregnation
...
Various types of silicones completely dominate as impregnation agents.
...
Silicones are polymers that contain silicon-oxygen bonds and hydrocarbon compounds (alkyls) directly bonded to silicon atoms.
...
After the solvent evaporates and chemical reactions, silicone resin is formed.
...
Silicone impregnation does not hinder moisture transport in the vapor phase, but the drying of moisture from inside can be affected as evaporation must occur from a water surface deeper within the material. Therefore, one should not impregnate a wall where moisture is supplied from below or for some reason "from behind."
...
Advice... Do not impregnate walls where moisture supply comes from below or "from behind."
Pages 48-50
Water-repellent impregnation
...
Various types of silicones completely dominate as impregnation agents.
...
Silicones are polymers that contain silicon-oxygen bonds and hydrocarbon compounds (alkyls) directly bonded to silicon atoms.
...
After the solvent evaporates and chemical reactions, silicone resin is formed.
...
Silicone impregnation does not hinder moisture transport in the vapor phase, but the drying of moisture from inside can be affected as evaporation must occur from a water surface deeper within the material. Therefore, one should not impregnate a wall where moisture is supplied from below or for some reason "from behind."
...
Advice... Do not impregnate walls where moisture supply comes from below or "from behind."
Already on page 27 of the Moisture Handbook it states
... In design planning, it is important to consider that climatic conditions vary across different parts of Sweden. On the west coast and in Skåne, walls and windows are subjected to a lot of driving rain, which requires special measures.
Then a checklist directed at the designer follows:
Checklist
...Rain and snow
......Prefer 2-step sealing over 1-step in joints in facades and windows.
...Air humidity
......Ensure that moisture diffusion does not cause condensation inside the structure or too high humidity by
- using a vapor barrier
- arranging layers in an appropriate order
- venting or draining away condensate
- moisture can be stored to evaporate later
etc.
... In design planning, it is important to consider that climatic conditions vary across different parts of Sweden. On the west coast and in Skåne, walls and windows are subjected to a lot of driving rain, which requires special measures.
Then a checklist directed at the designer follows:
Checklist
...Rain and snow
......Prefer 2-step sealing over 1-step in joints in facades and windows.
...Air humidity
......Ensure that moisture diffusion does not cause condensation inside the structure or too high humidity by
- using a vapor barrier
- arranging layers in an appropriate order
- venting or draining away condensate
- moisture can be stored to evaporate later
etc.
The construction method with single-stage sealed facades on wooden houses really leaves no margin.
If one adopted the same non-existent margins in traffic, you would be caught for reckless driving.
To draw a classic car analogy!
Isn't that simply what one calls a systemic error!? When they developed the construction method, they forgot to account for what is called reality...
If one adopted the same non-existent margins in traffic, you would be caught for reckless driving.
To draw a classic car analogy!
Isn't that simply what one calls a systemic error!? When they developed the construction method, they forgot to account for what is called reality...