Uncertain if this is the right subforum - couldn't find one that felt completely right.
We are a number of people who might buy a very large villa (living area about 300 sqm + basement just over 100 sqm and some other secondary spaces) and convert it into a multi-family house. The maintenance is terribly overdue. What we have in front of us, if we proceed, is:
- Replace pipelines, plumbing
- Electrical overhaul, basically replace all wiring.
- Tear out existing bathroom and build a couple of new ones along with a couple of toilets.
- Tear out existing kitchens, three of them, and build new ones.
- Sand floors, repaint, etc.
- New windows, about 25-30
- Possibly remove staircase between floors, build two new ones, or one new staircase and keep the existing one.
- Possibly move a couple of walls
- Ensure that each apartment becomes a fire compartment.
- Add insulation
- Review the radiator system
- Install district heating
I've probably forgotten something, but in short, it involves scraping the inside of the house clean and rebuilding.
Now to my question:
Does anyone have an idea of how long this might take? We won't do the work ourselves but will hire contractors. Our most optimistic estimate is three months, but that's mostly because we want it to be that. I guess it could take significantly longer.
We are a number of people who might buy a very large villa (living area about 300 sqm + basement just over 100 sqm and some other secondary spaces) and convert it into a multi-family house. The maintenance is terribly overdue. What we have in front of us, if we proceed, is:
- Replace pipelines, plumbing
- Electrical overhaul, basically replace all wiring.
- Tear out existing bathroom and build a couple of new ones along with a couple of toilets.
- Tear out existing kitchens, three of them, and build new ones.
- Sand floors, repaint, etc.
- New windows, about 25-30
- Possibly remove staircase between floors, build two new ones, or one new staircase and keep the existing one.
- Possibly move a couple of walls
- Ensure that each apartment becomes a fire compartment.
- Add insulation
- Review the radiator system
- Install district heating
I've probably forgotten something, but in short, it involves scraping the inside of the house clean and rebuilding.
Now to my question:
Does anyone have an idea of how long this might take? We won't do the work ourselves but will hire contractors. Our most optimistic estimate is three months, but that's mostly because we want it to be that. I guess it could take significantly longer.
Guessing 24 man-months based on my own similar renovation.
Thank you for the response!
A follow-up question is: how difficult is it really to find reliable companies that can do the job within a certain time? Everyone you talk to claims that "things like that always take longer" etc., but if we were to do this, it's quite important that the time frames aren't exceeded too much. Do we dare? That's the big question...
A follow-up question is: how difficult is it really to find reliable companies that can do the job within a certain time? Everyone you talk to claims that "things like that always take longer" etc., but if we were to do this, it's quite important that the time frames aren't exceeded too much. Do we dare? That's the big question...
Your last sentence says it all. You need more insight into how it works in practice before you order such a comprehensive job. Rethink and consider other options! Timelines ALWAYS break in renovations!dagelito said:
Finding reliable companies is a job that takes its time. If you also want a schedule that holds, it becomes almost impossible.
Why is the timeline so important? What is your budget for the renovation? If it's almost unlimited, you certainly have other options, but that's not the case for most of us. You should look for ONE company that can take overall responsibility for the entire renovation with a substantial penalty for delays. Presumably, you will get responses between 12 and 24 months if you also want a guaranteed schedule.
What do the relationships look like between those of you making the purchase? Legal assistance for agreements on finances, rights, and obligations is recommended before you start. A renovation can easily run a couple of million more than you intended. Think through scenarios where some might want to drop out in the middle of the project or the money runs out.
PS: There might be something legally involved in converting the house to a multi-family residence. Check with the municipality about what paperwork is required.
We have a neighbor who started such a renovation in December. They are basically doing a total gutting of a house of about 300 sqm. They have had craftsmen doing everything. There have been up to 8 men working in the house now for 2 months. They work 15 hours/day every day of the week, even on Christmas Day.
The job is heavily delayed.
One of the more severe demolition jobs was planned to take 6 days, it took 6 weeks.
Over 200 cubic meters of demolition material have been transported away. A new container every morning.
The job is heavily delayed.
One of the more severe demolition jobs was planned to take 6 days, it took 6 weeks.
Over 200 cubic meters of demolition material have been transported away. A new container every morning.
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Mainstream, you are naturally right in everything you say. The situation is that we all really want to fix up this house because it has a lot of potential to become absolutely amazing, while we also know that we are risking a lot if we decide to invest. We haven't started getting quotes yet, but the rough estimates we've made together with experienced people tell us that we should be able to afford to carry it out, but if the costs escalate too much, we won't manage.
Time is important in the sense that we want to be able to move in relatively soon and don't have the possibility for parallel living arrangements for too long. One of the couples is also expecting a child and wants it to be reasonably finished before the baby is born.
All in all, it strongly leans towards us not going through with the deal, but it's a dream that's hard to let go of.
Time is important in the sense that we want to be able to move in relatively soon and don't have the possibility for parallel living arrangements for too long. One of the couples is also expecting a child and wants it to be reasonably finished before the baby is born.
All in all, it strongly leans towards us not going through with the deal, but it's a dream that's hard to let go of.
I don't want to crush any dreams. 
Is it completely unthinkable to maintain dual residences until the house is completely finished? The worst trap that exists is moving in and having an ongoing renovation. Then it drags on. Expect it to take 10 years—no one thinks it will take that long, but it does.... In the meantime, the rates of divorces and family disasters are high! It's the time aspect that kills all enthusiasm and engagement. Different expectations and a shared perception of what you've actually agreed upon. For the dream to end happily, expectations must match reality. Rushing before a child is due becomes a disaster if it doesn't succeed. I am convinced that it won't be finished before the child arrives. "Reasonably finished" are the keywords here. It's not enough.
So my advice is to find a solution to have it completely finished before you move in. What solutions can you see yourself for this?
Who will buy the house? A legal entity you form together?
Who will handle the renovation? It takes time away from regular work to be available, investigate things, and visit the site. Expect at least half a day per week on site during the day and about 12 hours a week otherwise.
Is it completely unthinkable to maintain dual residences until the house is completely finished? The worst trap that exists is moving in and having an ongoing renovation. Then it drags on. Expect it to take 10 years—no one thinks it will take that long, but it does.... In the meantime, the rates of divorces and family disasters are high! It's the time aspect that kills all enthusiasm and engagement. Different expectations and a shared perception of what you've actually agreed upon. For the dream to end happily, expectations must match reality. Rushing before a child is due becomes a disaster if it doesn't succeed. I am convinced that it won't be finished before the child arrives. "Reasonably finished" are the keywords here. It's not enough.
So my advice is to find a solution to have it completely finished before you move in. What solutions can you see yourself for this?
Who will buy the house? A legal entity you form together?
Who will handle the renovation? It takes time away from regular work to be available, investigate things, and visit the site. Expect at least half a day per week on site during the day and about 12 hours a week otherwise.
Good conditions for failure, unfortunately.dagelito said:
Good conditions for succeeding with such a project are to have no absolute deadline and to have the possibility of another residence during the time so you avoid living in a messy construction site, and the construction site avoids having a messy residence within it.
Great that you're prepared for it to be a challenge, oh my goodness, it sounds wonderfully exciting as a project!
We do have a smaller villa, but we chose to renovate in three stages. The ground floor when we moved in (and we're just a family), the second floor when the second child was on the way, and now the basement another three years later.
I understand you want a completely different timeline, but I think it might be good to consider that perhaps you could move in with a few weeks' interval at least?
Three months sounds optimistic, but six months to fully finished is absolutely realistic. I would strongly recommend choosing a contractor based on recommendations, the key is to have a reliable construction firm that at least tries to keep their promises and budget.
Then, of course, your groundwork and planning are crucial factors, ensuring that you have clearly decided what plan A is but also have researched unexpected events so that you have a plan B.
What level of budget do you have, roughly speaking? And the roof and foundation - what do they look like? It's really boring to fix, but not worth doing the interior if you can't maintain these.
Please let me know how it goes!
We do have a smaller villa, but we chose to renovate in three stages. The ground floor when we moved in (and we're just a family), the second floor when the second child was on the way, and now the basement another three years later.
I understand you want a completely different timeline, but I think it might be good to consider that perhaps you could move in with a few weeks' interval at least?
Three months sounds optimistic, but six months to fully finished is absolutely realistic. I would strongly recommend choosing a contractor based on recommendations, the key is to have a reliable construction firm that at least tries to keep their promises and budget.
Then, of course, your groundwork and planning are crucial factors, ensuring that you have clearly decided what plan A is but also have researched unexpected events so that you have a plan B.
What level of budget do you have, roughly speaking? And the roof and foundation - what do they look like? It's really boring to fix, but not worth doing the interior if you can't maintain these.
Please let me know how it goes!
I think the biggest problem will be finding all the skilled craftsmen in such a short time.
Thank you for all the replies!
Yes, it's an exciting project, indeed. In fact, all parties involved have alternative accommodations that could work. The uncertainty here concerns the financial aspect - maintaining two residences costs money. Time is truly money in this case. In addition, we need to find a bank that will grant us a loan for the house while we hold off on selling various condos (which we need to live in during the interim).
As I see it right now, the biggest issues are that the current homeowners want more than the house is worth and that we still don't know how much the renovations will cost (though I'm estimating roughly five million).
Yes, it's an exciting project, indeed. In fact, all parties involved have alternative accommodations that could work. The uncertainty here concerns the financial aspect - maintaining two residences costs money. Time is truly money in this case. In addition, we need to find a bank that will grant us a loan for the house while we hold off on selling various condos (which we need to live in during the interim).
As I see it right now, the biggest issues are that the current homeowners want more than the house is worth and that we still don't know how much the renovations will cost (though I'm estimating roughly five million).