Reasonable quote for installing an interior wall?

[Stringfellow Hawke]

That was NOT what you wrote.

If you are of the opinion that craftsmen should always be able to invoice 8 hours a day, I would like you to explain a bit more in detail what you base this statement on. It is true that you earn less if you cannot invoice 8 hours a day, but this does not automatically lead to you always being able to invoice 8 hours.

In all other industries (where time is sold), there is something called occupancy rate, and it's rarely 100% (=8 hours per day). When other industries set prices, the occupancy rate is a factor that is considered when setting the hourly rate.

Why should craftsmen be exempt?

First of all, I'm not a craftsman...

When I purchase services from IT consultants, it often costs 1000 SEK just for them to come, and then 900-1100 SEK/hour. It's a system that means you don't need to charge full days. The cost price is around 500 SEK/hour for the IT consultant, which is almost a 100% markup. For a craftsman hour, you might have a 10% markup...

What you missed was that this is not an ongoing job; the customer has asked what a service costs and received a fixed price. Then the number of hours in a day doesn't matter, that's my point. And there's no profitability in having a construction company that charges 350 SEK per hour and then doesn't get full days; that company would then go under.

 

[Thomas59]

First of all, I'm not a craftsman...

When I buy services from IT consultants, it often costs 1000 kr just for them to arrive, and then 900-1100 kr/hour. It's a system that means you don't have to charge full days. The cost price is probably around 500 kr/hour for the IT consultant, meaning almost a 100% markup. For a craftsman hour, you might have a 10% markup...

What you missed was that this is not an ongoing job, the customer asked what a service costs and got a fixed price. Then it doesn't matter how many hours there are in a day, that's my point. And there's no profitability in having a construction company that invoices 350 kr per hour and then doesn't get full days, then that company will go bankrupt.

I have not missed anything. I commented on your example, and in your example there was no mention of a fixed price.

Charging for a full day in ongoing work, despite only working part of the day, with the reasoning that you have nothing meaningful to do for the rest of the day is simply dishonest in all other industries, except for the craftsman industries where it seems to be completely okay to bill even the hours you don't work because you need to have profit in the company.

What do you do on the days you don't have work? Do you send an invoice to a randomly selected customer with the reasoning that you actually need to be paid even when you're not working?

What the markups are in different industries has nothing to do with the matter. Are you saying it's okay to bill even the hours you don't work because you have low markups?

If your point was that the customer shouldn't care how many hours a fixed-price job takes, you might not have chosen an example involving ongoing billing, or have I missed something?

The solution to your last example with the company going bankrupt at 350 kr/h is, if I understand you correctly, to charge the customer even for the hours you're not working? No wonder customers think craftsmen are scammers with such reasoning. If the company can't be profitable at 350 kr/h, then you should ideally raise the price (if you are below market price) or reduce costs. If you can't raise the price up to what other companies charge per hour because customers are leaving, you are probably not skilled enough and should focus on something else.

Your reasoning just reveals how out of touch with reality the craftsman industry is.

 

[PappasHammare]

The Stills: Is it workplace-friendly to carry drywall yourself from the car to the worksite? How many flights of stairs without an elevator do you think are okay?
....

Who mentioned stairs? Plus, there are great tools available for carrying panels...
http://www.jula.se/handtag-for-skivor-124698

And sure, you can refuse, but what some here have reacted to is this strange way of calculating, that the customer has to pay for a really strange time calculation...

 

[Glufsglufs]

I don't really get it. If you get a quote, you can never get the wrong price. You either think the price is good and accept the company, or you think it's too expensive and go elsewhere. It's not the price that's wrong in itself but rather whether the customer thinks it's high or not, and to figure that out, you ask around. A quoted price in a country with free pricing can never be wrong. If I quote based on 10 hours of work but it takes 6 hours, it's often because I've estimated high to cover potential issues that may arise in certain types of work, or I've managed to be more efficient than expected, so congratulations to me if the customer has accepted the quote. You can also turn it around and say I quote with a price based on 6 hours, but it takes 10 hours; then I'll have to bite the bullet if I haven't reserved in the quote for what turned out to take extra time, such as troubleshooting earth faults during installation of a GFCI, congratulations to the customer in that case. If a customer asks around for hourly rates, they will get hourly rates for ongoing work from different companies, and then it's up to the customer to judge whether it's expensive or not, what you actually get for that price in terms of knowledge, experience, and job finish, etc. So, a price is never wrong, just variously expensive/cheap.

But back to the original question. Yes, if all the other companies you ask have similar amounts, the price is reasonable; if others are much lower, you choose another, as the "expensive" company is either aware that they are expensive and don't need the job or they know something that'll complicate the work that other companies don't, and you, as a customer, will have to argue about extra time (hard to imagine on a wall, but generally speaking), and this variation time can be hard to avoid. So, when choosing a craftsman, is the cheapest really the cheapest in the end?

 

[Stringfellow Hawke]

I haven't missed anything. I commented on your example and in your example there was no mention of a fixed price.

We have probably misunderstood each other quite a bit, I'm not talking about ripping off private individuals, I'm trying to show the unreasonableness of craftsmen taking on such small jobs on an ongoing basis with the hourly rates that apply today.

I understand that they give fixed prices that ensure full coverage for the days. Then getting criticized for it because it supposedly shouldn't take a whole day to complete according to the experts on the Byggahus forum is what's ridiculous in the discussion... Don't you agree?

 

[Tyresö]

I don't really get it. If you get a quote, you can never get the wrong price. Either you think the price is good and accept the company or you think it's too expensive and turn to someone else. It's not the price that's inherently wrong but whether the customer thinks it's high or not, and to figure that out, you ask more people. A quoted price in a country with free pricing can never be wrong. If I quote a job estimating 10 hours of work but it takes 6 hours, it's often because I estimated high to cover potential issues that may arise in certain types of work, or I've managed to be more efficient than I calculated – so congrats to me if the customer approved the quote. You can also flip it and say I give a quote with a price based on 6 hours but it takes 10 hours; then I have to bite the bullet unless I've reserved in the quote for things that potentially turned out to take extra long, like troubleshooting a ground fault during the installation of a RCD, congratulations to the customer in that case. If a customer shops around for hourly rates, they thus get hourly rates for ongoing jobs from different companies; it's then up to the customer to decide whether it's expensive or not, what they actually get for the price in terms of knowledge, experience, and job finish, etc. So, a price is never wrong, but differently expensive/cheap.

Back to the original question. Yes, if all other firms you ask are quoting similar amounts, then the price is reasonable. If all others are much lower, then you choose another because the "expensive" company is either aware they are expensive and don't need the job, or they know something complicates the work that other companies don't, and you as a customer might then have to argue about extra time (hard to imagine that on a wall but generally) and this deviation time can be hard to avoid. So that's also a thing when choosing a craftsman, is the cheapest option really the cheapest in the end?

Fully agree - couldn't have expressed it more clearly myself! In the concrete pumping industry, we first charge a fixed base fee and then, once on-site, the customer pays the hourly rate based on how many hours the job takes, even if it only takes 1 hour. Perhaps craftsmen should also charge a base fee to cover the time it takes to prepare (bringing in/out tools, materials, etc.), and then the hourly rate starts when the actual work begins. I think it would make it easier for craftsmen to account for small jobs that way.

 

[Glufsglufs]

Completely agree - couldn't have communicated the message more clearly myself!
In the concrete pumping industry, we first charge a fixed base fee and then, once we are on site, the customer pays the hourly rate depending on how many hours the job takes, even if the job only takes 1 hour. Tradespeople might also charge a base fee to cover the time it takes to prepare (carrying in/out tools, materials, etc.) and then start the hourly rate once the actual work is underway. I think it would make it easier for tradespeople to account for small jobs then.

There are companies that charge a higher rate for the first hour or a "call-out fee".

 

[Polskt]

How can one complain that a craftsman charges 6000 for the work (since the VAT isn't his). They aren't under-the-table workers, and therefore social fees, insurances, tools (incredibly large cost for a construction company), vehicles, etc., need to be paid.

Those of you who think it was outrageous should start a company. That you then receive 3500 from Uncle Sam for setting up your wall is another matter, and who does the administrative work? Yes, the business owner.

Buy the material yourself and install it.

 

[Thomas59]

We have probably misunderstood each other quite a bit, I'm not talking about scamming private individuals, I'm trying to show the unreasonableness of craftsmen taking such small jobs on an ongoing basis with the current hourly rates.

I understand that they offer fixed prices that cover full days. Then to be criticized for it because it supposedly shouldn't take a whole day to complete according to the experts on the Byggahus forum is what's ridiculous in the discussion... Don't you agree?

No, I don't think I misunderstood you. In your example, you argue that the client (on continuous billing) should accept paying for time you are not working. I call that knowingly scamming customers.

If you want to express your opinion regarding the reasonableness of taking small jobs on continuous billing, I think you should state it outright. Your example mainly served to reinforce the image that customers have regarding how backward your reasoning is.

Providing an example that gives the impression that you think it's okay to bill for 8 hours even though the job took 5-6 hours doesn't directly contribute to a positive impression of craftsmen. Especially as many are surely irritated by the fact that, as you write, 8 hours are billed even if the job took 5-6 hours with the justification that profit needs to be made, which is completely absurd. The customer should not have to pay for your poor planning.

Regarding your second claim, I do NOT AGREE AT ALL, and it's hard to believe any customer would either—if they knew what underlies the calculation of the fixed price.

Why would customers agree to pay for time you don't work and that also has no basis in a reasonable time calculation for the work, but is solely based on the craftsman having nothing productive to do with the remaining time of a full workday.

A fixed price should reasonably be guided by a reasonably calculated time consumption with a certain time provision for unforeseen events. Consistently rounding up to full days is not particularly honest with the customer, but I do understand that it is not the intention either. Given that the time consumption the fixed price is based on is reasonable, I believe most customers have no problem with the work taking slightly less time than planned. This presumes, as you surely understand, that the time calculation is guided by WORK-RELATED factors rather than that the customer should foot the bill for the craftsman's poor planning or laziness.

The opinions you express (apparently without quite understanding how crazy it sounds to a customer) when you try to explain why you think it's okay to scam customers out of money are precisely what annoys many customers, but this you don't seem to understand. There must always be a perceived value for the customer that matches the cost; otherwise, the price is perceived as unreasonable. It's unclear exactly what the customer gets for the hours you bill without working. Perhaps you can elaborate on that. I might have missed something.

 

[Polskt]

Thomas59

Do you think people would pick many liters of strawberries with hourly pay and don't you think craftsmen work faster with piecework too? Wake up!

 

[Thomas59]

Thomas59

Do you think people would pick many liters of strawberries for an hourly wage, and don't you think craftsmen work faster with piecework too? Wake up!

I'm not quite sure where you're going with your examples. I have never commented on strawberry picking or the benefits of piecework. If your (strawberry) example is applied to craftsmen, one might think you're implying that craftsmen working on time and materials intentionally work slowly. If not, what are you trying to show with your strawberry example?

That in some cases one can work faster if working on piecework, I do not doubt, and it is of course okay provided that the piecework is based on a reasonable time estimate grounded in factors included in the agreed job. However, if the piecework is based on a reasonable time estimate, according to the previous sentence, BUT then additional time is added to round out to whole days, it is nothing short of fraud.

What I'm supposed to wake up from is a bit unclear. Maybe you could clarify?

 

[Polskt]

I think I have clarified, but you still don't seem quite alert. Slacking off and working harder on piecework are two very different things. I think you undervalue workers and craftsmen in particular.

Why not start working as one yourself?

 

[Tyresö]

I think I've clarified, but you still seem not quite awake. Slacking off and working harder on piecework are two very different things. I think you are undervaluing workers and craftsmen in particular.

Why not start working as one yourself?

Maybe it's time for the rest of us to start choosing sides in the discussion! I vote for this comment that Mr. Polskt made. Does anyone think that Mr. Polskt and I are completely wrong?

 

[Thomas59]

I think I have clarified, but you still don't seem fully awake. Slacking off and working harder on piecework are two very different things. I think you are devaluing workers and craftsmen in particular.

Why not start working as one yourself?

If you take a moment to reflect on what you're writing to begin with. What did you mean, for example, with your strawberry picker example? It's hard to interpret it in any other way than that strawberry pickers with an hourly wage pick fewer strawberries than those who are paid per liter. Translated to craftsmen, it implies that YOU YOURSELF claim that craftsmen on a running bill are assumed to slack off compared to, for example, craftsmen working on a fixed price or what do you really mean with your example?

Your clarifications (if you refer to, for example, the strawberry picker example) actually speak AGAINST what I assume you are trying to argue FOR. I might need to clarify once more that I have not commented on whether craftsmen on a running bill slack off or not, and I have also not commented on what piecework means in terms of work productivity.

What I have commented on is Stringfellow's claim that it is okay to charge for time not worked (when billing hourly) with the justification that one MUST be paid for a full 8-hour day. NOTHING ELSE. I wonder who is asleep in this discussion?

 

[Polskt]

Yes, but Good Lord! It HURTS to work on piecework. With your posts, I know that you've never done physical labor for pay. I rest my case...