What should I do with the walls?

[snowjim]

Hello,

We are renovating the kitchen (18 sqm) and have reached the walls. Currently, they consist of studs about 100 cm apart with 12 mm thick masonite boards. The joints between the boards are uneven in some places, and in some areas, it seems they are not completely attached to the studs.

Here's how it looks:


http://i.imgur.com/zO65mNT.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/4M7oaZM.jpg
Lagan wall from earlier

http://i.imgur.com/xa5R4mY.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/eF8MW5f.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/pUHyNBp.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/C8EJXHv.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/8oM5P23.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/meVwI4f.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/6lvDg53.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/9cHYvO3.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/MF3kyJa.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/qBkiCwM.jpg

A lot of electricity will be installed in the walls, so unfortunately something must be done. These are the tips I've received from other threads:

1. Tear down the boards completely, let the electrician install the wiring, and put up 12 mm plasterboard or 2x6. This is probably the most correct approach, but it also involves the most work (demolition, sawing, installation, and plastering).

2. Groove the electricity into the masonite and then place renovation plasterboard (6mm) on top. The advantage is, of course, much less work; however, the downside is that since the walls aren't completely straight, there's a high risk that the 6 mm plasterboard will crack during installation. Additionally, I'm not sure if the boards currently there contribute to an old kitchen smell. In total, this adds 12 mm in length and width, and the kitchen is already tightly planned. 3 doorways and 1 window also need to be adjusted by an extra 6 mm in depth, which might look odd.

Suggestions? What would you choose?

 

[Testarn]

Since it seems sparsely framed and you believe there might be an old "kitchen odor" in the existing boards, I would at least take down the boards, add more framing, and then put up new drywall.

At the same time, I would probably add noggings where the new cabinets will be mounted so they don't just hang on the drywall and the studs that happen to be in the right place for the cabinets.

Of course, it's more work, but the result will be better and you'll be living with the kitchen for a while.

 

[snowjim]

Since it seems to be sparsely framed and you think there might be an old "kitchen smell" in the existing panels, I would at least take down the panels, add more framing, and then put up new drywall.

At the same time, I would probably add noggings where the new cabinets will be mounted so they're not just hanging on the drywall and the studs that happen to be in the right place to support the cabinets.

Of course, it's more work but the result will be better, and you'll be living with the kitchen for a while.

The old kitchen cabinets were attached with heavy nails at the top, suggesting that some kind of horizontal beam was placed there. In this case, however, the cabinets will be situated a bit lower, so you're probably right that I need to embed something extra in the wall there to achieve stability.

I really don't like drywall, it's tedious to attach things to it, and it easily breaks. It's much nicer to work with something like masonite, as it currently is, because you know it will hold and won't break as easily. Unfortunately, the standard seems to be drywall.

Then one can consider whether to use 12 mm drywall or double 6 mm drywall and stagger them to minimize cracking?

 

[varmkorv]

I would probably tear it down, put up OSB or plywood, then regular drywall. It's so nice to avoid using molly or similar if you want to hang something on the wall. Maybe it's a lot of work or doesn't fit to put two boards on walls where you have windows and/or doors. If it's too much work on those walls, I would put two boards where it's not too much work.

 

[snowjim]

I would probably tear down, put up OSB or plywood, then regular plasterboard. It's so nice not to have to use molly or similar fasteners if you want to hang something on the wall. Maybe it becomes a lot of work / doesn't fit to put two boards on walls where you have windows and/or doors. If it's too much work on these walls, I would put two boards where it's not too much work.

Not a bad idea, but the problem is that they seem to be at least 10 mm thick, and if you then put renovation plasterboard on top, it becomes 16 mm instead of 12-13 mm. But sure, 6-7 mm in length and width in the room might not matter much?

 

[snowjim]

Is it an okay solution to use plywood or similar as the first layer to get a bit better load-bearing capacity? Or is it 13 mm gypsum all around that is always required? I would like to stick to some form of standard, yet I want the load-bearing capacity to be good in what I set up.

I have at least decided to take down the panels that are there today, hoping that it will be enough to place vertical studs where the cabinets will be, but it might be necessary to add more vertical ones.

 

[Fel av Åke]

Get rid of the junk! Frame a bit closer, pull the electricity through, screw on real plywood, then drywall, then plaster, sand, and paint. Regular or renovation drywall. Yes, it's more work, but I personally won't be satisfied until it's done well! Spend the extra time it takes, and you'll have new electricity and a good wall that can hold kitchen cabinets and other things.

 

[pelpet]

Studs with cc100 are not something I would want to hang half a ton of kitchen cabinets on. A few misses in the screwing, and the cabinets might come loose if you're unlucky. I would carefully take down the masonite, add studs at cc50, do a neat recessed electrical installation with plenty of outlets + install a stove guard, put back the masonite if it's in good condition, put up drywall, and then patch and paint.

By remounting the masonite, you save cutting time and material costs. Your masonite is as thick as modern OSB. Place noggings between the studs where the cabinets will hang.

 

[snowjim]

Okay, I have never done this before so I probably need a bit more guidance.

1. What type of timber should I buy? Or should I adapt this to what’s already there?
2. Do I need to install studs even on the sides where nothing will be attached?
3. What do I do with the insulation? Should it just be cut and adapted to the new studs or should it be replaced completely?
4. Once the plywood is in place, how do you avoid placing screws for the drywall in the same spot? Or can the drywall be mounted any way over the plywood? Does it not need to be attached only to the studs?
5. Do you have suggestions for screws that I should use?
6. To what extent is plywood used behind drywall today?

 

[snowjim]

Beams with cc100 is not something I would want to hang half a ton of kitchen cabinets on. A few misses in the screwing and the cabinets might come loose if you're unlucky. I would gently tear down the masonite, add beams with cc50, do a nice recessed electrical installation with plenty of outlets + install a stove guard, put back the masonite if it's fresh, put up plaster and fill and paint.

By reinstalling the masonite, you save on cutting time and material costs. Your masonite is as thick as modern OSB. Place noggings between the beams where the cabinets are going to hang.

The masonite is 12 mm, if we were to put up 10 mm plywood and 6 mm plaster we get 16 mm, i.e., we build a total of 8 mm. The kitchen is already quite tightly planned, there is exactly 5 cm cover panel on the sides which is the minimum it should be. If we then add another 2 mm by keeping the masonite, we get a total of 4.4 cm margin, i.e., 6 mm too little. No idea if that can make a difference? Probably not.

The masonite is attached with loads of nails and it also doesn't seem particularly durable so getting it down completely will probably take more time than it's worth.

Speaking of which, how do you transport home and work with large plasterboards? I have a smaller plasterboard in the garage and despite its small size, it weighs quite a lot, also very fragile? Handling a board that's 120 x 230 x 6 feels impossible?

I bought a small folded table from Bosch but suspect it won't be much help here? How do I handle these large boards most easily? Do I suspect I need to buy larger trestles?

 

[snowjim]

Okay, watched some videos yesterday and what I am doing is the following:

1. Remove the masonite and check the studs, 1/2 day
2. Buy studs of the same size and install 50 cc. The installation is done with screws of size ?, the screws are driven in diagonally on each side, a total of 4 screws per stud. 1 day
3. Let the electricians do their job, 2 days
3. Buy OSB that is 11x1197x2500 mm, this should result in less waste. Unfortunately, ByggMax only has 10x2390x1197 which works poorly with 50 cc, otherwise the thickness is good. Saw that plywood is stronger but much more expensive, from what I understand from measurements, kitchen cabinets can be mounted in just about anything, even chipboard, the cabinets break before the wall gives way. 1/4 day
4. Buy plasterboards that are 6x1200x2500 mm, here the measurements matter less. But to prevent them from breaking too easily, I buy with a fiberglass-reinforced core. 1/4 day
5. Cut and put up OSB boards, cut out for outlets in advance by measuring to them. OSB boards are mounted directly on the studs horizontally with glue and screws of size ? 1 day
6. Install plasterboard vertically, no need to align with studs, screws of size ? are used. Finish by filling and sanding, 1 day.
7. Extend door and window frames with any hard wood to compensate for the additional 6-7 mm that the walls are built up with.
8. Ready to install the kitchen.

As you can see, I have not included any nogging, I am very doubtful that this is needed when using OSB and such tight spacing. However, one might wonder if you really need to use 50 cc spacing everywhere? There are large walls where nothing heavy will be mounted on the walls.

Does this sound reasonable?

Edit: The room is about 18 sqm.

 

[snowjim]

I can add that this is how it's intended to be when it's finished:



There is a large window on the empty long side that is not shown in the picture.

 

[Fel av Åke]

Fun to see the intended end result! But in my own experience, I've learned that EVERYTHING takes longer than originally planned. Don't rush through the project and don't skimp either, especially not on the "cheap" stuff, you'll benefit in the end.
I stand by that plywood is much more stable, and screws hold significantly better than in OSB boards. Not much more expensive if you spread it over the entire kitchen project cost. Of course, you should add a standing stud between all the other studs you already have = cc 50 everywhere. If you have cc 50 and plywood boards then I believe noggings become unnecessary.
Remember to offset the drywall boards in relation to the underlying board, it becomes more stable and reduces the risk of cracking. Transporting and handling drywall boards can be tricky and they break easily. I believe the building supply stores recommend carrying them upright.

 

[snowjim]

Tried removing a masonite board today, which was surprisingly easy.

The interesting thing is that even though it doesn't show on the outside, it actually seems to be placed 50 cc


http://i.imgur.com/9Cn09Ot.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/CMhiINR.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/rZ2S69g.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/mnvofqo.jpg

Probably, this applies to the whole kitchen, which is of course positive, but there's no insulation!? Also, one might question whether those studs are really installed properly?

All of this might have been figured out before removing the masonite board if one weren't an amateur

I have also talked to the craftsman we usually use. He wouldn't have installed OSB boards since it's a living material and they risk warping (whatever that means). He also wouldn't have prioritized 50 cc but instead would have placed noggings where the tracks for wall cabinets and floor cabinets will go and then support it, which practically means 50 cc in some places. Instead of OSB and plasterboard, he would have installed 13 mm plasterboard directly.

This approach seems much simpler for us, and you would think that if a craftsman who has worked with this for many years suggests it, it's more than sufficient to fulfill the function.

What about insulation, really? Isn't it standard to insulate all rooms within the home to dampen sound? In our case, our daughter has her room next to the kitchen, and you can hear quite a lot in there, so installing fiberglass (or whatever you put in) in the walls seems like an interesting solution if we're going to remove the masonite boards anyway.

But if we're going to cut corners on the job, the question is whether 50 cc and a masonite board would actually have been sufficient for IKEA's tracks and kitchen cabinets? The track will surely be attached to 7 studs (3.7/0.5). But sure, then there’s the electrical wiring, routing in the walls means we still have to put 6 mm plasterboard on top, so we might as well remove the masonite and install double plasterboard.

 

[snowjim]

Fun to see the intended final result! But for my part, I've learned that EVERYTHING takes longer than planned from the start. Don't rush through the project

No, it's calm, that's why we started a few weeks before the vacation, taking it bit by bit. Tonight we pulled out two more kitchen cabinets and took a look inside the wall.

don't skimp either, especially not on the "cheap" stuff, it'll pay off in the end. I still believe that plywood is way more stable and the screws hold much better than in OSB boards. Not significantly more expensive if you spread it over the entire cost of the kitchen project.

No, I'm ready to pay what's necessary to get it right. But sometimes it can be just as foolish to overdo it as to underdo it, sure it's usually better to overdo it but you understand. Plywood, as you say, is much more durable but OSB isn't too shabby, I read in another thread here where they pointed out tests that were done. They concluded that even with a wall made of particleboard, the cabinets gave way before the wall did. So an OSB board sounds like a reasonable intermediate wall, it's not the cheapest and not the most expensive.

Of course, you should insert a vertical stud between all the other studs you already have = cc 50 everywhere. If you have cc 50 and plywood boards, I'm of the opinion that blocking becomes unnecessary.

Yes, that sounds reasonable, my contractor said that 100 cc and an 11 mm plywood board would be questionable, he would rather choose blocking adapted to the tracks instead. But, of course, the best possible is cc 50 AND plywood AND blocking, but that's least to say excessive.

Remember to stagger the drywall panels in relation to the underlying board, it becomes more stable and the risk of cracking decreases. Transporting and handling drywall boards can be tricky and they break easily. I recall that the hardware stores recommend carrying them upright.

Yes, I saw those who were putting up drywall at work, they used two layers of drywall and staggered them between layers, which seemed smart. However, my contractor suggested that one might as well use 13 mm directly. I suspect though that the risk of cracks becomes much greater, especially in a wooden house like ours.

The transport won't be fun, especially if we choose 6 mm drywall panels.