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74 replies
90k views
74 replies
Make your own wood protection / impregnation (Sioo, Organowood, Everwood)
There are a number of wood protection products - Sioo, Organowood, Everwood to name a few - which share the common feature of being non-toxic, fire-retardant, mold/rot-protective and based on silicon. I myself have built a deck with Organowood (nice) and treated raw tongue-and-groove planks, battens, and panels with Sioo to provide fire and rot protection. Now that I'm going to build a bathroom, I think it would be good to treat the entire framework with Sioo, to protect against future leakage problems, or why not treat all the wood in the future house, to reduce fire risk? One problem that comes up immediately is the price, so the question becomes what can be done oneself.
Sioo is based on potassium silicate, Organowood on sodium silicate (I learned this at Nordbygg this past spring). Sodium silicate and potassium silicate are water glass, and Everwood explicitly states in its product sheet that it is "water glass modified with a special catalyst."
Sioo is incidentally the chemical formula for silicon dioxide http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiseldioxid which is included in water glass http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vattenglas. Water glass is available in four types, according to the most comprehensive article I found, namely "Vattenglaset och dess användning i bygnadsfysiken" (H. Wagner, Teknisk tidskrift 1872) http://runeberg.org/tektid/1872/0232.html In this article, a mixture of potassium water and sodium water (3:2 by volume) is advocated as "It combines the good properties of potassium and sodium water glasses and is in most cases preferable to these separately." However, the article deals with masonry and plastering, nothing is mentioned about wood protection.
Sioo’s patent application can be found here: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP2003977.pdf In it, one can read that they use potassium silicate and an alkoxysilane in different stages. The potassium silicate penetrates the wood, and in a second treatment, the alkoxysilane is applied, which then penetrates the wood to a higher degree than if it had not been treated with potassium silicate first, and also binds the potassium silicate to the wood better (lines 0020-0031). Suitable molar ratios and concentrations for the potassium silicate in the first treatment are mentioned (lines 0032-0043). Thereafter, the alkoxysilane in treatment number two is discussed. I interpret this as the simplest treatment Sioo offers (step 1) being just a potassium silicate solution and the "reinforced" wood protection (step 2) being an alkoxysilane solution.
Step two can be difficult to do at home, but step one - potassium silicate solution - should be feasible to produce at home. Potassium water glass can be bought from Swedhandling Chemicals, although in barrels of 275 kg as the smallest package, which is a bit too much for a deck. http://www.swedhandling.com/index.php?page=produkter&list=3&sok=&o=&hp=95#Kalivattenglas Sodium water glass, on the other hand, is available in one-liter packs (Nitor Sodium water glass, available in paint stores http://www.alfort.se/sv/varumarken/...askemikalier-Losningsmedel/Vattenglas-natron/ or via Swedhandling http://www.swedhandling.com/pdf/Natronvattenglas.pdf), so even if it may not be the optimal wood protection, it might be good enough to protect against fire and rot in protected constructions (framework, raw tongue-and-groove planks, under facade paint).
Now to the question for you chemists: how do you mix an appropriate water glass solution, starting from Nitor Sodium water glass?
Best regards,
Bergstinget
Sioo is based on potassium silicate, Organowood on sodium silicate (I learned this at Nordbygg this past spring). Sodium silicate and potassium silicate are water glass, and Everwood explicitly states in its product sheet that it is "water glass modified with a special catalyst."
Sioo is incidentally the chemical formula for silicon dioxide http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiseldioxid which is included in water glass http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vattenglas. Water glass is available in four types, according to the most comprehensive article I found, namely "Vattenglaset och dess användning i bygnadsfysiken" (H. Wagner, Teknisk tidskrift 1872) http://runeberg.org/tektid/1872/0232.html In this article, a mixture of potassium water and sodium water (3:2 by volume) is advocated as "It combines the good properties of potassium and sodium water glasses and is in most cases preferable to these separately." However, the article deals with masonry and plastering, nothing is mentioned about wood protection.
Sioo’s patent application can be found here: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP2003977.pdf In it, one can read that they use potassium silicate and an alkoxysilane in different stages. The potassium silicate penetrates the wood, and in a second treatment, the alkoxysilane is applied, which then penetrates the wood to a higher degree than if it had not been treated with potassium silicate first, and also binds the potassium silicate to the wood better (lines 0020-0031). Suitable molar ratios and concentrations for the potassium silicate in the first treatment are mentioned (lines 0032-0043). Thereafter, the alkoxysilane in treatment number two is discussed. I interpret this as the simplest treatment Sioo offers (step 1) being just a potassium silicate solution and the "reinforced" wood protection (step 2) being an alkoxysilane solution.
Step two can be difficult to do at home, but step one - potassium silicate solution - should be feasible to produce at home. Potassium water glass can be bought from Swedhandling Chemicals, although in barrels of 275 kg as the smallest package, which is a bit too much for a deck. http://www.swedhandling.com/index.php?page=produkter&list=3&sok=&o=&hp=95#Kalivattenglas Sodium water glass, on the other hand, is available in one-liter packs (Nitor Sodium water glass, available in paint stores http://www.alfort.se/sv/varumarken/...askemikalier-Losningsmedel/Vattenglas-natron/ or via Swedhandling http://www.swedhandling.com/pdf/Natronvattenglas.pdf), so even if it may not be the optimal wood protection, it might be good enough to protect against fire and rot in protected constructions (framework, raw tongue-and-groove planks, under facade paint).
Now to the question for you chemists: how do you mix an appropriate water glass solution, starting from Nitor Sodium water glass?
Best regards,
Bergstinget
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Interesting compilation. I also looked at Organowood's patent (Organoclick AB, they have several but I think this one is the most relevant).
At the beginning, it states that the liquid shall contain:
-an alkali metal silicate
-water
-an insolubilization agent which is selected from an organic acid, an inorganic acid or an inorganic polyvalent ion
I would also think there should be a catalyst for the silanization reaction itself, but perhaps it's enough to have the right pH.
At the beginning, it states that the liquid shall contain:
-an alkali metal silicate
-water
-an insolubilization agent which is selected from an organic acid, an inorganic acid or an inorganic polyvalent ion
I would also think there should be a catalyst for the silanization reaction itself, but perhaps it's enough to have the right pH.
Well, I also found their Swedish patent - they propose sodium water glass (for economic reasons), water, and an "insolubility agent" and drying at 44 degrees. This is to prevent the water glass from leaching out.
Even Sioo adds an acid - the patent applications are very similar - to stabilize the potassium water glass in the wood. They don't heat up the wood; perhaps potassium water glass is better with wood?
I can accept that the leaching will be greater for my homemade water glass - if I have to reapply every five years instead of every ten, so be it. But three liters of Sioo costs 745 SEK at K-rauta and one liter of Nitor Sodium Water Glass cost 81 SEK according to a recommended price list I saw, so the savings potential is large. Citric acid doesn't cost that much.
Additionally, if you only use it on protected wood structures (e.g., roof boards, frameworks, sills, studs in bathrooms, floor chipboard, etc.), the leaching is not an issue.
So you might consider taking sodium water glass, diluting it, and adding citric acid to make a mixture as similar as possible. pH, silicate percentage, and molar weights are noted in the patent applications, but what does this mean in practice?
Even Sioo adds an acid - the patent applications are very similar - to stabilize the potassium water glass in the wood. They don't heat up the wood; perhaps potassium water glass is better with wood?
I can accept that the leaching will be greater for my homemade water glass - if I have to reapply every five years instead of every ten, so be it. But three liters of Sioo costs 745 SEK at K-rauta and one liter of Nitor Sodium Water Glass cost 81 SEK according to a recommended price list I saw, so the savings potential is large. Citric acid doesn't cost that much.
Additionally, if you only use it on protected wood structures (e.g., roof boards, frameworks, sills, studs in bathrooms, floor chipboard, etc.), the leaching is not an issue.
So you might consider taking sodium water glass, diluting it, and adding citric acid to make a mixture as similar as possible. pH, silicate percentage, and molar weights are noted in the patent applications, but what does this mean in practice?
Hold on a minute now. A lot of talk about technology, patents, rot protection, flame protection, etc. The fact is that water glass is a product that has existed for thousands of years. The technology is not new, it's that simple. Guarantee? There is no independent data that demonstrates the unique feature that the company claims. Check the SP independent test, SP Report 2013:42, where both Sioo and Organoo clearly performed the worst in the test.
A 10-year warranty depends on financially strong owners. A cheaper product that works offers a 20-year warranty, with a fund that ensures compensation, because these players know what they are talking about.
Flame protection? What flame protection. Is the product CE marked? Fire/flame protection is the same thing and is subject to CE marking requirements. But you already knew that, right? Do any of the aforementioned companies have this? The answer is No!
The products may be good, and in marketing, they claim to be environmentally friendly. The question I ask myself when referring to, for example, copper is: Is anyone drinking water, or having a cold beer in the summer? Water is transported in copper pipes, and the cold, delightful beer is made in a copper cistern. But who cares? The main thing is that the plank does not contain copper, right?
No... Stick to the point and focus not on patents, but on actual performance and reality!
Thank you for listening.
A 10-year warranty depends on financially strong owners. A cheaper product that works offers a 20-year warranty, with a fund that ensures compensation, because these players know what they are talking about.
Flame protection? What flame protection. Is the product CE marked? Fire/flame protection is the same thing and is subject to CE marking requirements. But you already knew that, right? Do any of the aforementioned companies have this? The answer is No!
The products may be good, and in marketing, they claim to be environmentally friendly. The question I ask myself when referring to, for example, copper is: Is anyone drinking water, or having a cold beer in the summer? Water is transported in copper pipes, and the cold, delightful beer is made in a copper cistern. But who cares? The main thing is that the plank does not contain copper, right?
No... Stick to the point and focus not on patents, but on actual performance and reality!
Thank you for listening.
Glass water has been used for a very long time, didn't I write that? What TimbersSIL, Organowood, Sioo, among others, have been working on is finding ways to prevent leaching/improve penetration. I don't understand your objections regarding the fact that glass water has existed/been used for a long time and that different techniques have been patented? That is a completely different discussion in that case; what I'm interested in are the proportions for mixing my own.
Regarding protective properties, there is lots of research and anecdotal information to read; here is a link to an overview presentation. https://m.facebook.com/permalink.php?id=249976911779657&story_fbid=415014978609182
The copper question is a bit off-topic, but regardless of the fact that it is still unmatched in water pipes (even though pex is gaining market share), one should not forget that lead was once considered unmatched for water pipes. It is not without reason that copper has been banned/restricted in boat paints, as roofing material, as wood protection, etc. Simply because it is a potent biocide that leaks into the environment.
Regarding protective properties, there is lots of research and anecdotal information to read; here is a link to an overview presentation. https://m.facebook.com/permalink.php?id=249976911779657&story_fbid=415014978609182
The copper question is a bit off-topic, but regardless of the fact that it is still unmatched in water pipes (even though pex is gaining market share), one should not forget that lead was once considered unmatched for water pipes. It is not without reason that copper has been banned/restricted in boat paints, as roofing material, as wood protection, etc. Simply because it is a potent biocide that leaks into the environment.
Short answer: no idea.
Both Sioo and Organowood turn gray if left outdoors. Organowood is a bit whitish when you buy it. Sioo makes the wood a little browner/yellowish, then it fades, and then gray (according to the manufacturer). Indoors, I don't know how it turns out in the long run.
Both Sioo and Organowood turn gray if left outdoors. Organowood is a bit whitish when you buy it. Sioo makes the wood a little browner/yellowish, then it fades, and then gray (according to the manufacturer). Indoors, I don't know how it turns out in the long run.
The question is really, do you want gray wood or wood protection? If gray wood is the case, then you can buy regular wood, all wood turns gray over time. However, if you want durable wood with long-lasting proven properties that are covered by a warranty, then you can choose NTR. If you don't want that warranty, then you choose, for example, another product that is being discussed. As far as I know, neither Sioo nor Organowood is approved according to the NTR quality system. The water-repellent effect that is claimed does not work, especially not after a month of wear. I work as a site manager myself, and the panel we use absorbs rain just like any plank, no difference at all after a short time.
Regarding research, I suppose you have taken part in independent tests from SP, SP Report 2013:42. Not impressive reading for either Sioo or Organowood. Pictures speak for themselves.
The copper issue is interesting. Especially considering that the body needs copper, 2mg per liter of drinking water is the limit value, we are recommended to drink 2 liters of water per day. Foods such as liver, meat, fish, nuts, and cocoa contain copper, interesting then with GI methods that refer to increased meat intake. Then relate 0.0018kg of copper to kg of wood plank and lifespan of 20 years, this would mean 0.00009kg of durable copper per kg of wood, from a 20-year perspective.
Now, this may not have much to do with your wood plank, but it's important to set the level of discussion about whether, for example, copper is as dangerous as it is portrayed, in relation to other methods of protecting wood. NTR approved wood requires no renewal of wood-protective measures, while Sioo and Organowood recommend ongoing maintenance.
That does not mean it should be free for copper, nor that it is okay to use copper in boat paint, etc. It would be interesting to see an investigation in the present time, which can prove that today's wood preservatives are so much worse than those claimed to solve all environmental problems regarding wood protection. Often one refers to old wood preservatives, but even in this area, there is progress.
If you want to be really environmentally friendly, you can choose Thermowood, no additives, just heating. It can't get more natural than that, and it turns gray over time, even if it is brown when you buy it. However, Thermowood becomes quite brittle, which can cause problems depending on the area of use.
Question, I didn't know that lead was recommended in water pipes. In which decade was lead recommended in water pipes?
/A
Regarding research, I suppose you have taken part in independent tests from SP, SP Report 2013:42. Not impressive reading for either Sioo or Organowood. Pictures speak for themselves.
The copper issue is interesting. Especially considering that the body needs copper, 2mg per liter of drinking water is the limit value, we are recommended to drink 2 liters of water per day. Foods such as liver, meat, fish, nuts, and cocoa contain copper, interesting then with GI methods that refer to increased meat intake. Then relate 0.0018kg of copper to kg of wood plank and lifespan of 20 years, this would mean 0.00009kg of durable copper per kg of wood, from a 20-year perspective.
Now, this may not have much to do with your wood plank, but it's important to set the level of discussion about whether, for example, copper is as dangerous as it is portrayed, in relation to other methods of protecting wood. NTR approved wood requires no renewal of wood-protective measures, while Sioo and Organowood recommend ongoing maintenance.
That does not mean it should be free for copper, nor that it is okay to use copper in boat paint, etc. It would be interesting to see an investigation in the present time, which can prove that today's wood preservatives are so much worse than those claimed to solve all environmental problems regarding wood protection. Often one refers to old wood preservatives, but even in this area, there is progress.
If you want to be really environmentally friendly, you can choose Thermowood, no additives, just heating. It can't get more natural than that, and it turns gray over time, even if it is brown when you buy it. However, Thermowood becomes quite brittle, which can cause problems depending on the area of use.
Question, I didn't know that lead was recommended in water pipes. In which decade was lead recommended in water pipes?
/A
That Sioo mfl is not NTR-classified is probably not so strange; the industry is full of biased interest organizations that guard their own areas/technologies. Here's what it says at the bottom of their website:
"Svenska Träskyddsföreningen – the wood protection industry's interest organization for pressure-treated NTR-marked wood."
Then I am fully aware that pressure-treated wood withstands ground/water contact far better compared to most alternatives (except creosote), but that's not what interests me. Pressure-treated wood was used as sill in the 70s (80s?), but it just resulted in odor problems and cleanups, so it is not superior in all situations. Hence my interest in a cheap and simple treatment.
Lead has been used as a piping material since Roman times and was common until the 70s in many countries. With us, it is mostly found in copper pipe soldering.
I will see if I can find the report on wood graying depending on treatment; it is one or more bacteria that cause it, I believe. Today's green impregnation is just green dye—copper salts were green, but nowadays the pressure fluid is colorless (according to NTR) and the coloring is just to be able to distinguish treated from untreated wood.
"Svenska Träskyddsföreningen – the wood protection industry's interest organization for pressure-treated NTR-marked wood."
Then I am fully aware that pressure-treated wood withstands ground/water contact far better compared to most alternatives (except creosote), but that's not what interests me. Pressure-treated wood was used as sill in the 70s (80s?), but it just resulted in odor problems and cleanups, so it is not superior in all situations. Hence my interest in a cheap and simple treatment.
Lead has been used as a piping material since Roman times and was common until the 70s in many countries. With us, it is mostly found in copper pipe soldering.
I will see if I can find the report on wood graying depending on treatment; it is one or more bacteria that cause it, I believe. Today's green impregnation is just green dye—copper salts were green, but nowadays the pressure fluid is colorless (according to NTR) and the coloring is just to be able to distinguish treated from untreated wood.
NTR emerged because consumers want good products, not green cheap products that didn't work from, among others, the Baltics. Of course, there is self-interest in the association, but the foundation is to provide the market with approved products that offer long-lasting durable protection, which have also undergone extensive testing for both functionality and leaching, mold growth, etc.
I think consumers should ask themselves why none of these new products are listed with NTR. Why aren't any of these producers members of NTR for the current treatment?
Pressure-treated wood = green. Forget it. That's history.
My final advice to consumers is to consider why there are approved tested products covered by 20-year warranties. Compare that to new revolutionary products that aren't covered by any warranties at all, except for the company's own funds. What happens in 1, 2, 3 years when it potentially rots, molds, etc.? Who stands behind the guarantees?
Thank you for a nice forum and discussion.
/ leaving this forum now. Thanks from me.
I think consumers should ask themselves why none of these new products are listed with NTR. Why aren't any of these producers members of NTR for the current treatment?
Pressure-treated wood = green. Forget it. That's history.
My final advice to consumers is to consider why there are approved tested products covered by 20-year warranties. Compare that to new revolutionary products that aren't covered by any warranties at all, except for the company's own funds. What happens in 1, 2, 3 years when it potentially rots, molds, etc.? Who stands behind the guarantees?
Thank you for a nice forum and discussion.
/ leaving this forum now. Thanks from me.
Then perhaps we can return to the thread's question: Nitor natronvattenglas is easily available, how is it mixed in suitable proportions to create a natronvattenglas-based wood preservative?
Back in the forum for a simple reason.
There is circulating information that Biocides are being added to Organowood, due to issues with growth.
However, it is confirmed that biocides are being added, the question is, what type and why, if it is as good as it claims to be. Or is it not? If true, it feels like everything is just a vision in the sky!
Thread's question, no idea. I stick to what works and products with guarantees.
There is circulating information that Biocides are being added to Organowood, due to issues with growth.
However, it is confirmed that biocides are being added, the question is, what type and why, if it is as good as it claims to be. Or is it not? If true, it feels like everything is just a vision in the sky!
Thread's question, no idea. I stick to what works and products with guarantees.
Oops, got a bit mixed up in the text. But as I said, Biocider should apparently be added.
Anders, everything you're bringing up is a topic for its own thread. Start it instead, because nothing you write is relevant to what I've brought up.
Ok Bergtinget.
Reply to your thread, 13-16% should be enough depending on how often you want to renew.
Bye
Reply to your thread, 13-16% should be enough depending on how often you want to renew.
Bye