I am planning to move my kitchen in the house I'm renovating. In my original plans, it was always included that I need to reroute the drainage through the floor joist because the point where it comes up from the basement, which I can't move, doesn't fit the new placement. This has been completely okay since it was a relatively small relocation and probably just across a couple of joists with the rest along the joist.
Now, however, I've found a new placement for the kitchen that is much, much better, but then it ends up quite a distance from where the drainage comes up.
Is it a regular engineering firm I should contact to see if it's possible to route the drainage through these joists with some form of reinforcement or other construction? Are they able to handle such things, or is this too advanced?
The problem is that I need a slope, and then the holes wouldn't be in the center of the joists but at the beginning and end, the lowest and highest points, much too close to the edges.
Now, however, I've found a new placement for the kitchen that is much, much better, but then it ends up quite a distance from where the drainage comes up.
Is it a regular engineering firm I should contact to see if it's possible to route the drainage through these joists with some form of reinforcement or other construction? Are they able to handle such things, or is this too advanced?
The problem is that I need a slope, and then the holes wouldn't be in the center of the joists but at the beginning and end, the lowest and highest points, much too close to the edges.
If you have a basement, it's easy to just run it down anywhere and then go with exposed pipes along the basement walls or in the basement ceiling.
A major advantage of basements is that it's so easy to change the house's infrastructure, whether it's water, sewage, electricity, heating, or anything else.
A major advantage of basements is that it's so easy to change the house's infrastructure, whether it's water, sewage, electricity, heating, or anything else.
In theory, one might think so, but with a finished basement, it's not always that simple. Sure, I can run the plumbing in the ceiling, but then I can't open doors, etc. Also, it's incredibly ugly.
My basement is more of an auxiliary space, not full-height ceiling, as the house is not buried more than about 40 cm below ground.
So no, it would be like running the plumbing in the ceiling on the first floor of a 1 1/2-story house.
[Edit]
That wasn't entirely true. There is a small section I could run in the basement, but I still have ~5 meters that need to go in the joists.
My basement is more of an auxiliary space, not full-height ceiling, as the house is not buried more than about 40 cm below ground.
So no, it would be like running the plumbing in the ceiling on the first floor of a 1 1/2-story house.
[Edit]
That wasn't entirely true. There is a small section I could run in the basement, but I still have ~5 meters that need to go in the joists.
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Running drainage pipes through floor joists can be tricky. Especially if it involves cutting holes in the top or bottom of the joists or near the joist supports, which is simply not allowed. There is also doubt about modern drainage pipes that extend long distances in wooden floor structures without inspection possibilities. The best solution is to run them along the back edge of the lower cabinets, perhaps in combination with PNO's suggestion, partially in the basement. You may need to adjust the kitchen layout to make it feasible. Alternatively, you might have to chisel up the basement floor.
Unfortunately, there is no routing path that takes me through the base cabinets. Today's plumbing is located in the middle of the house, and the countertops end up against a wall on the short side, so I have to cross half the house.
It would be very valuable to be able to have the kitchen there, but not so much that I would tear up a newly renovated basement floor. Pipes in the basement ceiling are unfortunately not an option unless I run it through the middle of the ceiling, which would not be attractive (especially with a slope). There are doors in the wall, so I can't run it there if I still want to be able to open them....
My remaining question is whether it's an engineering firm I should check with to see if there's any possibility to solve this. With all respect to this eminent forum and its members, I don't know the people behind the keyboards, so I can't judge for myself whether you really know what you're talking about or not.
This question is somewhat in contrast to this, but I wouldn't, for example, put up a beam that someone on the forum said would hold without checking it out.
In this case, it's me who wants to do something crazy and you who are stopping me, but I feel that this is worth a lot, so I want to discuss all possible solutions with someone who knows. For example, one could reduce the risk of leakage by running proper PVC that is glued instead of pipes with a coupling (though I don't know if that's allowed...).
It would be very valuable to be able to have the kitchen there, but not so much that I would tear up a newly renovated basement floor. Pipes in the basement ceiling are unfortunately not an option unless I run it through the middle of the ceiling, which would not be attractive (especially with a slope). There are doors in the wall, so I can't run it there if I still want to be able to open them....
My remaining question is whether it's an engineering firm I should check with to see if there's any possibility to solve this. With all respect to this eminent forum and its members, I don't know the people behind the keyboards, so I can't judge for myself whether you really know what you're talking about or not.
This question is somewhat in contrast to this, but I wouldn't, for example, put up a beam that someone on the forum said would hold without checking it out.
In this case, it's me who wants to do something crazy and you who are stopping me, but I feel that this is worth a lot, so I want to discuss all possible solutions with someone who knows. For example, one could reduce the risk of leakage by running proper PVC that is glued instead of pipes with a coupling (though I don't know if that's allowed...).
You are absolutely right that you always have to think for yourself and can't slavishly follow the advice you get on Byggahus. But you can save on the cost of the engineering firm, if they have any competence they will say what I said earlier. A piece of advice not to make such holes as you have in mind can hardly cause any harm.
When you mention glued PVC, you are on a different track that is probably worth investigating. If you use a sealed pipe system that also withstands some pressure, there are probably possibilities to route it in a way that doesn't damage the joists. Making holes in the middle of the beams, both in height and in length, is a minor issue. Plumbing is not my area of expertise, but I have a sewage pump that moves wastewater from a sump pit to a higher infiltration. I know there are similar solutions for indoor situations. If you want more concrete advice, you should post a floor plan where both levels are visible.
When you mention glued PVC, you are on a different track that is probably worth investigating. If you use a sealed pipe system that also withstands some pressure, there are probably possibilities to route it in a way that doesn't damage the joists. Making holes in the middle of the beams, both in height and in length, is a minor issue. Plumbing is not my area of expertise, but I have a sewage pump that moves wastewater from a sump pit to a higher infiltration. I know there are similar solutions for indoor situations. If you want more concrete advice, you should post a floor plan where both levels are visible.
Thank you!
I hope you didn't take offense and think I questioned competence, which I didn't mean. It seems, however, that you understood what I meant.
Unfortunately, I don't have any sensible drawings (house from the 30s). A few surprises every now and then when you tear into the house...
Almost everything I know about the house are things I've checked/measured myself.
Seems like I should consult an HVAC company to see if there's anything that can help me.
I hope you didn't take offense and think I questioned competence, which I didn't mean. It seems, however, that you understood what I meant.
Unfortunately, I don't have any sensible drawings (house from the 30s). A few surprises every now and then when you tear into the house...
Almost everything I know about the house are things I've checked/measured myself.
Seems like I should consult an HVAC company to see if there's anything that can help me.
I think it's an excellent idea.N Nizztos said:
If the house was built in the 1930s, there is a high risk that the floor joists are of the dimension 3x7 inches, i.e., about 75x175 mm, with varying c/c distance. Wide but not so high. Then a 50 mm hole can be sensitive.
Yes, 2x9 inches provides much better conditions. But run the plumbing track first.
Put it in a floor cavity leading to an outer wall, then, if that makes it easier? Typically, there aren't a lot of doors in outer walls, right? But in principle, I agree—it's unfortunate to have lots of exposed pipes even along basement walls. I've just finished a huge project of burying most of the sewage pipes under the basement slab instead, and embedding most of the water pipes in the joists.
If, like me, you have very thick basement walls but thin walls from the ground floor and up, you can also create a solution where you lay the sewage in the joist along the sill so that the joists can be crossed where they still have support underneath. This should give a little more freedom in how the joists are crossed.
If, like me, you have very thick basement walls but thin walls from the ground floor and up, you can also create a solution where you lay the sewage in the joist along the sill so that the joists can be crossed where they still have support underneath. This should give a little more freedom in how the joists are crossed.
It might seem like a good idea, but from a structural strength perspective, it's less successful. A hole in the middle of the beams (half the span, that is) is actually less sensitive (as long as it doesn't go too close to the edges). Then I think TS has a plank wall that competes for space at the sill.PNO said:
The idea of going through the outer wall is creative. It is indeed a solution sometimes used for other piping needs.
If you talk to a plumbing company and/or constructor, they will have suggestions. Everything is possible, but in the worst case, it will become very expensive.
It's not a problem to have the pipes uninspectable, sewage pipes are often laid without inspection possibilities, and it is usually not an issue. Maybe in about 50 - 70 years, there might be problems, all pipes need to be replaced eventually.
Now, we don’t know how it looks at your place (upload a drawing). But it is usually possible to route the pipes either in a baseboard under the cabinets for a bit (or in the wall behind the cabinets). Then down into the joists and along a bay, and then come down visibly a bit across to the main pipe. Maybe that part can be hidden in an internal wall in the basement?
It's not a problem to have the pipes uninspectable, sewage pipes are often laid without inspection possibilities, and it is usually not an issue. Maybe in about 50 - 70 years, there might be problems, all pipes need to be replaced eventually.
Now, we don’t know how it looks at your place (upload a drawing). But it is usually possible to route the pipes either in a baseboard under the cabinets for a bit (or in the wall behind the cabinets). Then down into the joists and along a bay, and then come down visibly a bit across to the main pipe. Maybe that part can be hidden in an internal wall in the basement?
That's exactly how I thought you were thinking. That part of a beam is subjected to transverse forces and shear stresses, so a lot of material is needed. At the center of the beam, the moment of inertia has the most significance, and it is only marginally affected by a hole in the centroid line. I'm writing this for general informational purposes.
I agree with that, but what we hypothetically discussed was running the pipes with a low slope in large curves through holes in several beams that move differently. I think that should be avoided.H hempularen said: