Does Isover's spacer sleeve provide an air gap (facade board)?

[SBH]

absolutely I can do that. but the interesting thing is if you and I have the same understanding of how it works?

can't you just answer if you know

I answer. then you will ask which page have you read that then.
was your base Getängsvägen 22 borås or Johan på Gårdas gata 5 göteborg?

 

[hul]

I respond. Then you'll ask which site did you read that from.
Was your base Getängsvägen 22 Borås or Johan på Gårdas gata 5 Gothenburg?

I don't work at Skanska and have actually never done so.

No, I won't say that, I can promise you now.
But it might be good to clarify so we both have the same definition of a two-stage sealed façade.
Since that's the whole thing the discussion is fundamentally based on.

 

[Prosit]

The thread has gone off track, calm down or I'll have to ask the admin to remove it.

OnT:
Does it seem like a good solution from most perspectives to have 12 mm vertical battens (e.g. 12x50) against the facade board (that is, against the spacer sleeves) and then horizontal nail battens 28 mm on top of that to get a sufficient air gap to avoid risk construction? (That is, 40 mm air gap except where the nail battens are.)

 

[hul]

The thread has gone off track, calm down or I'll have to ask the admin to remove this.

OnT:
Does it seem like a good solution from most perspectives to have 12 mm vertical battens (e.g., 12x50) against the facade board (that is, against the spacer sleeves) and then horizontal nail battens 28 mm on top of that to get a sufficient air gap to avoid a risk construction? (That is, a 40 mm air gap except where the nail battens are.)

yup, that sounds like a satisfactory solution.
That's what I'm trying to convey and also backed up with various studies that have shown this.

 

[tobbbias]

Hehe, this is humor! I'll pour a little more gasoline on the fire and write the same as smurfen72 wrote 100 posts ago. My bottom boards are tight against the windproofing. That's how it was built before I re-clad it. When I tore off the old facade that was 20 years old, all the bottom boards looked really nice despite no air gap. So I built it the same way again. Now that I had to take down 11 cladding boards and 11 bottom boards because we just installed a new patio door, these boards still looked new after 2 years. So I think you can probably sleep well no matter how you choose to build.
However, keep an eye on the facade from time to time. It's not like you'll suddenly have 90 percent rot damage one day, as it happens gradually.
Good luck

 

[SBH]

The thread has gone off track, calm down or I'll have to ask admin to remove this.

OnT:
Does it seem like a good solution from most perspectives to have 12 mm vertical battens (e.g., 12x50) against the facade board (i.e., against the spacer sleeves) and then horizontal nail battens 28 mm on top of that to get a sufficient air gap to avoid risk construction? (That is, a 40 mm air gap except where the nail battens are.)

I have full confidence that admin will clean it up.

 

[hul]

Hehe, this is humor! I'm adding a bit more fuel to the fire and saying the same thing smurfen72 said 100 posts ago. My bottom boards are pressed directly against the wind barrier. That's how it was built before I replaced the cladding. When I tore off the old facade that was 20 years old, all the bottom boards looked really fine despite no air gap. So I built the same way again. Now, when I had to take down 11 caps and 11 bottoms because we just installed a new patio door, these boards still looked new after 2 years. So I think you can probably sleep well no matter how you choose to build.
However, keep an eye on the facade now and then. It's not like you'll suddenly have 90 percent rot damage one day, it happens gradually.
Good luck

absolutely, I have said that they probably work in many cases.
but research has been done on the subject and it has been concluded that there is a risk in the construction.

since it's known now and it's such an inexpensive measure, I would at least build with horizontal and vertical battens to be on the safe side.

 

[SBH]

Hehe, this is comedy! I'll pour a little more gasoline on the fire and write the same as smurfen72 wrote for 100 posts ago. My bottom boards are placed flush against the wind barrier. That's how it was built before I reclad the façade. When I tore down the old façade which was 20 years old, all the bottom boards looked really fine despite no air gap. So I built the same way again. Now that I had to dismantle 11 cladding boards and 11 bottoms because we just installed a new patio door, these boards still looked new after 2 years. So I think you can probably sleep well no matter how you choose to build. However, keep an eye on the façade now and then. It's not like you'll suddenly have 90 percent rot damage one day; it happens gradually. Good luck

I just think it's funny. Funny with people who are stuck in one way of thinking

 

[SBH]

absolutely, I have indeed said that they probably work in many cases.
but research has been done on the subject and it has been concluded that there is a risk in the construction.

since we now know this and it's such a cheap measure, I would at least build with horizontal and vertical battens to be on the safe side

Spike battens get a thumbs up. Forget strö and bärläkt on a facade

 

[hul]

Here is a simple and good text on the subject for those who are interested. For those who strive to build as moisture-proof as current research suggests, others need not follow or read further.

"Well-ventilated air gap with vertically standing battens

A basic prerequisite to avoiding moisture and mold-related damage in a wooden frame wall is to have a well-ventilated, drained, capillary-breaking, and pressure-equalizing air gap behind the facade layer. In Norway, which is generally more exposed to driving rain compared to Sweden, this is a requirement today.

A well-ventilated, drained, capillary-breaking, and pressure-equalizing air gap should have at least one layer of vertically standing battens, creating a minimum 20 mm wide air gap where water can freely flow downward and then be led out of the construction. Water that runs out of the air gap should be directed away from the foundation with the help of a base flashing or equivalent. It is also of utmost importance that the air gap is well-ventilated. High ventilation is needed to dry out the moisture that has penetrated the air gap and possibly leaks further into the wall. A well-ventilated air gap is achieved by ensuring that the at least 20 mm wide air gap, created with vertically standing battens, is also open at the top. At the opening at the top, it is important to ensure that the moisture ventilated out through the gap does not have the opportunity to be transported into the cold attic or other parts of the roof structure. Apart from any mouse guards or other nets for protection against pests, the gap should thus be completely open at both the top and bottom.

Only horizontally lying battens, or alternatively the air gap that horizontal lying battens create in combination with lap or lock-sheathing panels, are not considered to provide sufficiently good conditions for adequate ventilation and to allow water to freely run downward and be guided out of the construction. Studies conducted show that a standing batten with large perforations can create a well-ventilated air gap."

 

[Kallebo]

I have actually read that text before and at one point considered using 20-22mm standing battens. But found 12mm at the lumberyard that fit perfectly.

I have an opening for the outer walls at the top and take in air to the attic spaces from the gable vents. On the gables, I currently have about a 10mm gap at the top, along the gable overhang 38°. But I'm a bit unsure if rainwater might come in there when it's windy... I could easily close the gap with a strip.

Does that make sense?

 

[Kallebo]

The horrible thing is that the text also says that water from driving rain penetrates behind the facade panels... I haven't paid as much attention to that.

 

[hul]

I have actually read that text before and at one point considered using 20-22mm vertical battens. But found 12 at the lumberyard that worked excellently.

I have an opening for the exterior walls at the top and bring in air to the attic from the gable vents. On the gables, I currently have about a 10mm gap at the very top, along the gable overhang 38°. But I'm a bit unsure if rainwater might get in when it blows... I can easily seal the gap with a strip.

Reasonable?

sounds absolutely reasonable.
I don't think the important thing is whether the horizontal battens are 22mm or similar, but rather that you use a horizontal batten at all.
That way you create a free airflow and large air circulation that can ventilate away moisture so it doesn't press into the wall construction.

Yes, driving rain creates an enormous water pressure over the facade. I have read a study on 2-stage sealed facades where they discuss this and used the storm Gudrun as an example.
I recall they compared the driving rain from Gudrun to a 20mm water column over the entire facade. (I will try to find the study so I can check my figures)

 

[hul]

Found the article:

The storm Gudrun created a wind pressure of 500 Pa over the façade, and during rain, it can be equated to a water column of 50mm over the entire façade. This gives an understanding of the forces a façade is exposed to and why a wide air gap is needed.

so important to create a dry pressure-equalizing layer

 

[roli]

?....The average air exchange rate in the slits of the experimental walls during the period October to February could be estimated to:

• 1. •  230-310 exchanges/h with vertical battens
       
       
     •  75-100 exchanges/h with horizontal battens Lindab
       
       
     •  95-130 exchanges/h with horizontal battens Europrofil

The research provides figures on how "good" the air exchange is with different configurations. But it doesn't give a value on what is needed to avoid problems? One solution is about 3 times better in terms of air exchange, but that doesn't say everything, better is one thing but what is needed? Could it be that all the variants work, just with varying effectiveness? Maybe only 10, 50 or even more or less air exchanges are needed for it to work.
What is needed is what's interesting, then that alt. 1 is better than the other two alternatives is interesting to know but it's not the most important factor in the whole, as it is not reported......