The vapor barrier or diffusion barrier's existence is a beloved subject. I have now read that many place the vapor barrier a bit into the insulation. Simply to avoid it being perforated by nails in the wall for shelves and paintings. Apparently, there should be no problems for any moisture. I have always built with the barrier ALWAYS directly against the heat, even if you risk making some holes in the plastic.
My question is how do you fix this with plastic into the insulation? I've searched a bit on the forum but haven't found a good description.
Do you attach a 2x2" stud with 60 cm centers and insulate, then place the plastic over it entirely and then add another stud of the same size to make it 4" and insulate with an additional 45 mm?
Or do you set up with 2x4" in one go, lay 45 mm of insulation, then plastic, and then an additional 45 mm? Yes, assuming you now want 90 mm. But how do I place the plastic?? You want it over the studs too, right?
I've only bought 2x4"!!
If anyone has done this maneuver, I would appreciate a reply. Planning to work on this over the weekend..! Need to finish the additional insulation before the heat pump guy comes to install the indoor unit on this wall.
Erber
My question is how do you fix this with plastic into the insulation? I've searched a bit on the forum but haven't found a good description.
Do you attach a 2x2" stud with 60 cm centers and insulate, then place the plastic over it entirely and then add another stud of the same size to make it 4" and insulate with an additional 45 mm?
Or do you set up with 2x4" in one go, lay 45 mm of insulation, then plastic, and then an additional 45 mm? Yes, assuming you now want 90 mm. But how do I place the plastic?? You want it over the studs too, right?
I've only bought 2x4"!!
If anyone has done this maneuver, I would appreciate a reply. Planning to work on this over the weekend..! Need to finish the additional insulation before the heat pump guy comes to install the indoor unit on this wall.
Erber
However, remember that the vapor barrier should not be placed more than 1/3 from the warm side. If you have a 95mm wall, the vapor barrier should be placed a maximum of 30mm from the warm side.
Otherwise, you can make the wall using standing 45-95, apply the plastic to the standing framework, and then add 45-45 on the inside. This minimizes the number of thermal bridges with crossed insulation, meets the requirement that the plastic should be placed a maximum of 1/3 into the wall, and provides a great space for running electrical/plumbing lines!
Otherwise, you can make the wall using standing 45-95, apply the plastic to the standing framework, and then add 45-45 on the inside. This minimizes the number of thermal bridges with crossed insulation, meets the requirement that the plastic should be placed a maximum of 1/3 into the wall, and provides a great space for running electrical/plumbing lines!
I am really grateful for the tips!! Damn, I've spent too many years studying and know about and have thought about thermal bridges, and yet I didn't remember to actually turn the studs. Thanks again, Immobil. It's lucky that I haven't started placing the studs yet. I've only bought the timber.
Styx....I think it won't be a problem here. I'm adding insulation inward, and you're supposed to calculate the ENTIRE wall, including the existing one, right?!?
As mentioned, the house was built in '68, and I haven't actually checked thoroughly, but I will certainly do so to see if there's already a vapor barrier in the existing wall. But I honestly don't think there is. It's probably in order; exterior cladding, wind barrier paper, insulation, wooden wall (like formwork timber), and then a wood fiber board. I haven't seen any plastic, for example, at electrical outlets. In that case, I'll tear down the walls and start over from the old insulation. Even if it goes against the grain.
It was something that came in the early '70s if I understood correctly. Dad built a house in 1972-73, and that's when they used plastic as a vapor barrier - I know that. BUT they installed it AGAINST the cold. I remember as a younger teenager a few years later having to crawl into the upper floor's "crawl space" in the eaves and tear away plastic and insulation that was wet. Dad found it a bit difficult size-wise to reach, as you had to saw holes in the wall. At least that's what he claimed. I thought he could just cut a bigger hole, but he wouldn't hear of it. And there were many houses in the area with the same problem, even though they were different brands of homes. Likewise, in our summer cottage built at the same time, they placed plastic against the cold. Which is wrong if you have warmth year-round. I'm of the opinion never to use a vapor barrier in spaces that aren't warm year-round.
Immobil.....split???:eek: I'm lazy (inherited from my father).....much easier to go to the lumberyard and buy a new 2x2"!! Who knows, you might find some fun tool to bring home to tease the wife a bit, who already thinks my toolbox is expensive.
By the way....someone might read this who can give tips on window casings. Do you build them from MDF, to get a smooth surface right away? Or planed timber?!?! How do the pros do it?!?!
Once again....thanks for the tips. This time it saved a lot of hours of work to ask first.
Damn, I've spent too many years studying and know about and have thought about thermal bridges, and yet I didn't remember to actually turn the studs. Thanks again, Immobil. It's lucky that I haven't started placing the studs yet. I've only bought the timber.Styx....I think it won't be a problem here. I'm adding insulation inward, and you're supposed to calculate the ENTIRE wall, including the existing one, right?!?
As mentioned, the house was built in '68, and I haven't actually checked thoroughly, but I will certainly do so to see if there's already a vapor barrier in the existing wall. But I honestly don't think there is. It's probably in order; exterior cladding, wind barrier paper, insulation, wooden wall (like formwork timber), and then a wood fiber board. I haven't seen any plastic, for example, at electrical outlets. In that case, I'll tear down the walls and start over from the old insulation. Even if it goes against the grain.
It was something that came in the early '70s if I understood correctly. Dad built a house in 1972-73, and that's when they used plastic as a vapor barrier - I know that. BUT they installed it AGAINST the cold. I remember as a younger teenager a few years later having to crawl into the upper floor's "crawl space" in the eaves and tear away plastic and insulation that was wet. Dad found it a bit difficult size-wise to reach, as you had to saw holes in the wall.
At least that's what he claimed. I thought he could just cut a bigger hole, but he wouldn't hear of it. And there were many houses in the area with the same problem, even though they were different brands of homes. Likewise, in our summer cottage built at the same time, they placed plastic against the cold. Which is wrong if you have warmth year-round. I'm of the opinion never to use a vapor barrier in spaces that aren't warm year-round.Immobil.....split???:eek: I'm lazy (inherited from my father).....much easier to go to the lumberyard and buy a new 2x2"!! Who knows, you might find some fun tool to bring home to tease the wife a bit, who already thinks my toolbox is expensive.
By the way....someone might read this who can give tips on window casings. Do you build them from MDF, to get a smooth surface right away? Or planed timber?!?! How do the pros do it?!?!
Once again....thanks for the tips. This time it saved a lot of hours of work to ask first.
Started to set studs, but am a bit uncertain around windows and doors.
I'm not quite sure how to explain what I mean, but suppose you start with the first layer of horizontal 2x2" studs and place them cc 60 from ceiling to floor. Now, imagine there's a window and an outer door on the wall. Do you then place the horizontal stud all the way up to the window or door frame, OR do you do as before, i.e., first build a frame around the door and window and place the horizontal stud against that? In other words, the frame you build out the jamb from?
The method of building with crossed studs is to avoid thermal bridges, but it also brings the disadvantage that if you need to install a deeper window or jamb, you only have half as much to fasten to. There will be visible insulation all the way to the jamb, with a small break where the stud is visible. You can bet that it'll be right where you want to place a frame screw to keep it straight.
Anyone who understands what I mean and has thought similarly?
I can say that I did as I've always done. Placed a frame around the window, EVEN if there's a risk of a thermal bridge. It's small, but it's there.
Grateful for answers.
/ERBER
I'm not quite sure how to explain what I mean, but suppose you start with the first layer of horizontal 2x2" studs and place them cc 60 from ceiling to floor. Now, imagine there's a window and an outer door on the wall. Do you then place the horizontal stud all the way up to the window or door frame, OR do you do as before, i.e., first build a frame around the door and window and place the horizontal stud against that? In other words, the frame you build out the jamb from?
The method of building with crossed studs is to avoid thermal bridges, but it also brings the disadvantage that if you need to install a deeper window or jamb, you only have half as much to fasten to. There will be visible insulation all the way to the jamb, with a small break where the stud is visible. You can bet that it'll be right where you want to place a frame screw to keep it straight.
Anyone who understands what I mean and has thought similarly?
I can say that I did as I've always done. Placed a frame around the window, EVEN if there's a risk of a thermal bridge. It's small, but it's there.
Grateful for answers.
/ERBER
Yes, that's how we always do it too, a whole frame around the window/door and then attach the lying layer in it.erber said:I can say that I did as I always have. Put a frame around the window, EVEN if there is now a risk of a thermal bridge. It is small, but it is there.
/ERBER
Hello again...!
Styx....Thinking about the frames around windows and doors. If you follow the way you always do, it must be okay to build the frames around windows and doors with 2x4" instead of double 2x2". The two layers of 2x2" will be at the same level then. I know I might be asking the obvious, but I just want to make sure I'm on the right track. Hopefully, the wall will stay there for a few years.
It's really hard to describe. But if you've done it yourself, maybe it's easier to understand what I mean. I hope so anyway.
Big thanks for the answers.
Styx....Thinking about the frames around windows and doors. If you follow the way you always do, it must be okay to build the frames around windows and doors with 2x4" instead of double 2x2". The two layers of 2x2" will be at the same level then. I know I might be asking the obvious, but I just want to make sure I'm on the right track. Hopefully, the wall will stay there for a few years.
It's really hard to describe. But if you've done it yourself, maybe it's easier to understand what I mean. I hope so anyway.
Big thanks for the answers.
Exactly as Bulwark says...
Furthermore, we don't often add insulation inward. When we build, the frame is perhaps 170 or 195, and then it would be tricky to make the posts around windows/doors in a different dimension. That's why an extended frame comes naturally..!
Furthermore, we don't often add insulation inward. When we build, the frame is perhaps 170 or 195, and then it would be tricky to make the posts around windows/doors in a different dimension. That's why an extended frame comes naturally..!
Yeah....damn....Bulwalk....that's how it is!! Then I have to double up with 2x2". Luckily, that kind of timber is cheap. I'm so annoyed when I don't think one step ahead. Otherwise, it would have come to light the hard way. But it's better to learn from others' experiences and knowledge.
I should be able to get an additional insulated wall now. Now it's just the electricity left. And the electrician decided to go to the Canary Islands today. And at the earliest can come and check it next Tuesday.
Big thanks for the response once again - it's a few hours of work saved after all!!
I should be able to get an additional insulated wall now. Now it's just the electricity left. And the electrician decided to go to the Canary Islands today.
And at the earliest can come and check it next Tuesday.Big thanks for the response once again - it's a few hours of work saved after all!!