Old moisture damage. Sagging beam.

[Brorsson]

Hello

When I tore down the basement ceiling due to renovation, I noticed there had been water damage in the bathroom above The beam there has water damage and you can now see that it sags about 3-4 cm lower than the other beams in the room.

I had a construction company here to check, and they said it wasn't an easy job; they didn't dare do anything because you have to press the beam up again, and then there's a risk of the tiles and ceramics cracking in the bathroom.

My question is whether this can be fixed? Is it possible to replace the entire beam without tearing down the bathroom? Or can it be reinforced or otherwise solved?

We have contacted a realtor and Anticimex and hope to get this through as a hidden defect, but the process feels anything but fast.

 

[justusandersson]

Hello and welcome to the Byggahus forum!

Something obviously needs to be done. First, you should find out the conditions. It is a house from the 1930s, give or take a decade. The question is whether there is any waterproofing membrane under the floor tiles? I'm not so sure about that. There is an old cold-water pipe made of cast iron which is original, and a later added hot water pipe made of copper. Both pass through the damaged beam, as does the sewage pipe, which is not so suitable. Parts of the plank frame and its sill, visible in the background, are also affected by the leak. The question is how much? Probably a comprehensive approach is needed for the entire bathroom. In the meantime, you could reinforce the damaged beam by splicing a stud of the same height alongside the existing one. Before that, reroute the cold and hot water so that these pipes do not need to pass through the beam. Where does the cast iron sewage pipe go? It may be necessary to plug it temporarily.

The problem is that no craftsman can master the entire situation. You need help from a plumber, carpenter, and someone knowledgeable in construction. Probably also a flooring installer.

 

[Brorsson]

Hello and welcome to Byggahus forum!

Something clearly needs to be done. First, you need to determine the conditions. It is a house from the 1930s, plus or minus a decade. The question is whether there is any waterproofing layer under the floor tiles? I'm not so sure about that. There is an old cold water pipe in cast iron that is original and a later added hot water pipe in copper. Both pass through the damaged beam, as does the drainpipe, which is not ideal. Parts of the wooden frame and its sill visible in the background are also affected by the leak. The question is, how much? Probably a comprehensive approach is needed for the entire bathroom. In the meantime, you could reinforce the damaged beam by splicing it with a stud of the same height alongside the existing one. Before doing that, reroute the cold and hot water so that these pipes do not need to pass through the beam. Where does the cast iron drainpipe go? You may need to plug it temporarily.

The problem is that no single tradesman can handle the entire situation. You need help from a plumber, carpenter, and someone with construction knowledge. Probably also a flooring installer.

Hello! Thanks!

They've really taken the easy way out by running the drain and water pipes through the beam in several places :s Is it possible to replace them with plastic pipes without damaging the waterproofing in the bathroom too much? Is there any kind of fitting you can place in the bathroom under the toilet? Etc., if you replace all the pipes with plastic and reinforce the beam?

Regards, Alexander

 

[justusandersson]

Do you know for certain that there is a waterproof layer? If so, how is it constructed? When was the house built? Before modern waterproof layers became common in the 70s, membrane insulation with bitumen sheets and hot asphalt was used. There's really nothing wrong with cast iron drainpipes except that they don't fit well with modern waterproofing systems. The real issue is the bathroom's layout. It's not OK for the pipes to go through the beam in that way. Water pipes can be moved quite easily. Possibly, the beam needs to be shifted slightly to the side. Do you have a floor plan of the bathroom or a photo so it can be seen from above? It's possible to replace the last parts of a cast iron pipe with a plastic pipe. A special rubber seal is used, if I remember correctly.

 

[Brorsson]

Do you know for sure that there is a waterproofing layer? How is it executed if so? When was the house built? Before modern waterproofing layers became common in the 70s, membrane insulations with bitumen mats and hot asphalt were used. There is actually nothing wrong with cast iron drain pipes except that they don't fit well with modern waterproofing systems. The problem is really the planning of the bathroom. It's not OK for the pipes to go through the beam in that way. The water pipes can be moved fairly easily. Possibly the beam should be moved slightly to the side. Do you have a floor plan of the bathroom or a photo so it can be seen from above? It's possible to replace the last parts of a cast iron pipe with a plastic pipe. You use a special rubber seal if I remember correctly.

The bathroom was renovated in 2005 according to the previous owner. It wasn't the seller who did it but the owner before that. The house was built in '58. It would be great if there is a rubber seal that can be used around the plastic pipes because I believe they have a smaller diameter than the old cast iron pipes.

But is there anyone here who has done a similar operation, replacing a beam in the floor structure without tearing everything above on the upper floor?

// Alexander

 

[justusandersson]

If the house was built in '58, there has definitely been a membrane insulation of the type I described earlier. The question is whether it has been replaced? You can probably see it if you lift the cover of the floor drain under the bathtub. It matters for which strategy you should choose. In the meantime, I think you should check if it's possible to insert a new floor joist a bit to the side (away from the drainage pipes) of the damaged one. I think it's unusual to have cold water pipes in cast iron in a house from '58. Is the house in the countryside?

A general advice if you conclude that the bathroom needs to be renovated: My experience (and it's quite extensive) is that tiles and ceramics do not last in the long run in wooden houses. There are too many movements. Tiles and ceramics as materials last for a thousand years but the waterproof membranes behind them last for ten. It's better to use high-quality vinyl flooring, a shower cabin, and splash protection behind the bathtub and washbasin. As soon as there are tiles on the walls, people think they can spray water recklessly.

 

[Stefan1972]

That bathroom is hardly renovated in that way. Maybe spruced up with some new tiles and surfaces. With so many pipes throughout it, it probably doesn't matter what you do. Any reinforcements won't make a difference until you redo everything and redo it all.
If the moisture damage is due to rusty pipes as it appears, you'll have to redo everything anyway. Otherwise, it's about sealing existing pipes and postponing everything.

 

[Brorsson]

Ugh, yes, it was impossible to see this before buying the house :/ but I guess it will have to be a complete solution with the rerouting of pipes and renovation of the bathroom and balcony, etc.. not an expense we planned on directly.

 

[Stefan1972]

It's clearly visible from a distance? You have a cast iron pipe that is untouched on the basement wall, there are galvanized iron pipes for the water. That, if anything, directly indicates that it's untouched in that way. If the bathroom had been completely renovated, it would certainly have been replaced, so you would have some piece of plastic pipe and other visible tap water fittings spliced in the basement.
Personally, I would leave it as it is. It might look bad, but the leakage can be very old, and if it has been standing like that for 30-40 years, it will probably stand just as long. Seal up what you can and put up a panel on the ceiling for now and fix everything when it's really needed.

 

[Brorsson]

It's obvious from a mile away? You have a cast iron pipe that's untouched on the basement wall, there are galvanized steel pipes for the water. That, if anything, directly indicates that it is untouched in that way. If the bathroom had been fully renovated, it would surely have been replaced, so you would have had some plastic pipes and other fittings for the tap water spliced visibly in the basement.
Personally, I would leave it as it is. It might look bad, but the leak could be very old, and if it has been standing like that for 30-40 years, it will probably last just as long again. Seal what you can and put a sheet up on the ceiling for now and take care of everything when it really needs to be done.

Yes, of course, we understood it was cast iron pipes, but finding that there was a water leak was not easy. The inspector, who visited the house twice, didn't find it either. As you say, it's probably been like that for quite some time and might hold for a while longer. The previous owner, who lived here for 11 years, hadn't done anything more than replace the windows in the house.

Awaiting a response from the insurance company on what they have to say about it.

 

[justusandersson]

I also think it's important to limit efforts to what is absolutely necessary right now. Test if the moisture damage is also rot damage by poking the wooden beam with a sharp knife. If you can't insert the knife tip at all, it's not rot damage, and you don't need to do anything about it for now. If it is rot damage, you need to make a temporary reinforcement. It's a bit difficult to determine the best method from the pictures. One option is to props up the whole thing. Place a smaller beam directly against the floorboards under the bathroom floor and support it with one or more vertical beams that you gently clamp against the basement floor. You should also examine the condition of the waterproofing layers on the floors and walls, so you don't cause more moisture damage.

 

[Brorsson]

I also think it's important to limit interventions to what's absolutely necessary right now. Test if the moisture damage is also rot damage by poking the wooden beam with a sharp knife. If the knife tip can't penetrate at all, it's not rot damage and you don't need to do anything about it for now. If it is rot damage, you need to make a temporary reinforcement. It's a bit difficult to determine the best approach from the pictures. One option is to prop everything up. Place a smaller beam directly against the floorboards under the bathroom floor and support it with one or more standing beams that you brace gently against the basement floor. You should also check the condition of the waterproofing layers, on the floor and walls, to avoid causing more moisture damage.

Yes, but I'm afraid of cracking the tiles and ceramics in the bathroom if I prop up the beam/bathroom floor. We don't use the bathtub in the bathroom, only the toilet and sink. Hopefully, the insurance company will cover part of this, otherwise, we'll probably have to make some temporary solution as you say and reinforce and renovate everything thoroughly when finances allow.

 

[justusandersson]

You should not push up the floor, just insert a support so that the floor does not sink further. If the floor's waterproofing is an old membrane insulation, the waterproofing behind the tiles on the walls is probably missing. In that case, I think it's a hidden fault.

 

[Stefan1972]

A latent defect is unlikely considering the untouched pipes, and it should be understood that the theoretical lifespan was exceeded long ago.
I wouldn't take that so seriously. The beam sagging is probably more due to the dozen holes they've made in it.

 

[Brorsson]

A little update on how it's been going. We won't get anything from Anticimex for hidden defects. They don't consider it to be any significant sag or collapse risk. The beam had 12% moisture, which is very dry. Therefore, they also don't consider it an ongoing moisture problem. Which we already knew. The plan is to renovate the bathroom later this year and, in connection with that, replace the beam.