Hello!
We have hired craftsmen to remodel our bathroom. We have a wall-hung toilet and sink, and the craftsmen have constructed an extension from the wall these are mounted on (premont). Now it turns out that this extension is crooked; there is a 1.2 cm difference if you measure the depth of the extension from far left to far right. The wall is tiled with mosaic. This causes the sink and toilet to also be a bit crooked. We are not satisfied with this. Now the craftsman claims that this is within the existing tolerances and that we have no choice but to approve the work and pay.
Can this be true? Is there anyone who is a craftsman/carpenter who knows what the rules are? Apparently, there is something called Hus AMA, but I can't find anything about this on the internet. What tolerances actually apply? The craftsman claims that there are tolerances for both the tiles and the construction.
/Anna
We have hired craftsmen to remodel our bathroom. We have a wall-hung toilet and sink, and the craftsmen have constructed an extension from the wall these are mounted on (premont). Now it turns out that this extension is crooked; there is a 1.2 cm difference if you measure the depth of the extension from far left to far right. The wall is tiled with mosaic. This causes the sink and toilet to also be a bit crooked. We are not satisfied with this. Now the craftsman claims that this is within the existing tolerances and that we have no choice but to approve the work and pay.
Can this be true? Is there anyone who is a craftsman/carpenter who knows what the rules are? Apparently, there is something called Hus AMA, but I can't find anything about this on the internet. What tolerances actually apply? The craftsman claims that there are tolerances for both the tiles and the construction.
/Anna
I have delved into this a bit more today, and it seems there is a law (that protects the consumer) which has been in effect since this year stating that as long as no offer has been written, the customer is in the right. If the customer is not satisfied, then that holds, and the customer has the right to withhold their payment. Do you know anything about this? Is it true?
Since no one else is answering my question, I guess I'll have to answer it myself ;D
http://www.konsumentvagledare.konsumentverket.se/mallar/sv/artikel.asp?ArticleID=2580
According to this page, it sounds like my case is a clear-cut case in my favor. I'll call the consumer ombudsman in my municipality on Monday and ask.
Keep your fingers crossed for me!
http://www.konsumentvagledare.konsumentverket.se/mallar/sv/artikel.asp?ArticleID=2580
According to this page, it sounds like my case is a clear-cut case in my favor. I'll call the consumer ombudsman in my municipality on Monday and ask.
Keep your fingers crossed for me!
Well, if the craftsman is right that the deviation is within the tolerance (which I don't know anything about), then he has indeed performed the work professionally, and as long as you haven't specifically agreed on the tolerance, he hasn't delivered in violation of your agreements.
But the question, as mentioned, is whether this deviation really is within an acceptable tolerance, it certainly sounds like a lot.
But the question, as mentioned, is whether this deviation really is within an acceptable tolerance, it certainly sounds like a lot.
Hello.
Isn't that why you "hire" a company for 350-400 SEK/hour so there won't be such error margins? They weren't reasonable either. I'm sure you would have done it more carefully yourself.
Let me give you a good example. My in-laws decided to redo their bathroom and a company was supposed to do the whole thing. Total cost about 70,000 SEK for 6m2.
Then it turns out they tiled the shower with no slope and the shower water stayed on the floor. I told them to stand their ground, and the company deducted 8,000 SEK for this, so I claim that a company should perform better than that.
Stand your ground, you will win the case, I'm sure of it. >
Isn't that why you "hire" a company for 350-400 SEK/hour so there won't be such error margins? They weren't reasonable either. I'm sure you would have done it more carefully yourself.
Let me give you a good example. My in-laws decided to redo their bathroom and a company was supposed to do the whole thing. Total cost about 70,000 SEK for 6m2.
Then it turns out they tiled the shower with no slope and the shower water stayed on the floor. I told them to stand their ground, and the company deducted 8,000 SEK for this, so I claim that a company should perform better than that.
Stand your ground, you will win the case, I'm sure of it. >
Thank you for your answers! I will ask the handyman to show where it states which tolerances apply and try to stand my ground and keep fighting. THANK YOU!
I'm a tradesman. Now, I don't quite grasp exactly how it's built for you, but generally, I believe this way. If it's a "fault" that isn't visible to the naked eye or noticeable in any other way than by measuring it, then it's acceptable. Otherwise, I think you can rightfully demand that it's done correctly. Margins of error that "aren't visible" should also have a good explanation. Something that has caused it to not be built another way, etc. I have no clue what the law says, but stand your ground. Construction companies are bloodsuckers and should do a good job!
Boring when things don't go well!
Hus AMA 98
General material and work description for construction work
I don't know if the following AMA codes are applicable as they are intended for walls or space-forming building components as they are called.
43 INTERNAL SPACE-FORMING BUILDING COMPONENTS
On Page 65
43.B/42 Additional wall constructions - panels and wooden frameworks or wood-based frameworks
it mentions tolerances and they are classified as Bowing, Inclination, (Position from the closest secondary line) or (Distance between nearby walls)
In your case, it probably applies to (Distance between nearby walls) and then the tolerance is ±25 mm regardless of the measurement length.
AMA is a bit vague regarding tolerances for dimensions on shafts and niches, but there are for openings, etc.
If the framework in the cladding is made of steel, the Steel Construction Institute's publication no. 112 Tolerances for steel constructions is available. But I don't have access to it and it perhaps only applies to the construction itself and not to how it has been installed, but I'm unsure.
I assume the cladding is intended for piping and a recessed cistern for the toilet, if you have both a washbasin and a toilet on the cladding, then it should be about 1.5 - 2 m wide, which gives 6-10 mm/m, which shouldn't make you see that the toilet and washbasin are crooked, but it's probably accentuated by the glass mosaic that is off by 1/2 tile on top of the cladding.
If the contractor installed prefabricated fixtures and claddings, they should have been more successful considering that the fixtures are a steel construction standing on the floor and against existing wall studs.
But it is doubtful if it can be considered reasonable for the contractor to redo the work.
How much needs to be done to fix the problem, where is the waterproofing in or behind the cladding?
What you can do is claim that AMA is not applicable in this case and say that it's not professionally executed and turn to the consumer ombudsman.
Good luck
/Patrik
Hus AMA 98
General material and work description for construction work
I don't know if the following AMA codes are applicable as they are intended for walls or space-forming building components as they are called.
43 INTERNAL SPACE-FORMING BUILDING COMPONENTS
On Page 65
43.B/42 Additional wall constructions - panels and wooden frameworks or wood-based frameworks
it mentions tolerances and they are classified as Bowing, Inclination, (Position from the closest secondary line) or (Distance between nearby walls)
In your case, it probably applies to (Distance between nearby walls) and then the tolerance is ±25 mm regardless of the measurement length.
AMA is a bit vague regarding tolerances for dimensions on shafts and niches, but there are for openings, etc.
If the framework in the cladding is made of steel, the Steel Construction Institute's publication no. 112 Tolerances for steel constructions is available. But I don't have access to it and it perhaps only applies to the construction itself and not to how it has been installed, but I'm unsure.
I assume the cladding is intended for piping and a recessed cistern for the toilet, if you have both a washbasin and a toilet on the cladding, then it should be about 1.5 - 2 m wide, which gives 6-10 mm/m, which shouldn't make you see that the toilet and washbasin are crooked, but it's probably accentuated by the glass mosaic that is off by 1/2 tile on top of the cladding.
If the contractor installed prefabricated fixtures and claddings, they should have been more successful considering that the fixtures are a steel construction standing on the floor and against existing wall studs.
But it is doubtful if it can be considered reasonable for the contractor to redo the work.
How much needs to be done to fix the problem, where is the waterproofing in or behind the cladding?
What you can do is claim that AMA is not applicable in this case and say that it's not professionally executed and turn to the consumer ombudsman.
Good luck
/Patrik
This has been discussed before on the forum, there is probably some information to find if you search for e.g. "AMA".
AMA is not a law and not even a standard. It is a collection of different solutions that can be referred to when drafting a contract. So if the craftsman says "it's in AMA," it's not acceptable if something else has been agreed upon. The problem with us private customers is probably that we do not control our craftsmen strictly enough. We have not regulated how the work should be carried out. The solution, as I see it, is to bring in an independent inspector to determine whether the work is "professionally performed" or not. This concept is more flexible than the definitions in e.g. AMA, but it can still provide some support...
AMA is not a law and not even a standard. It is a collection of different solutions that can be referred to when drafting a contract. So if the craftsman says "it's in AMA," it's not acceptable if something else has been agreed upon. The problem with us private customers is probably that we do not control our craftsmen strictly enough. We have not regulated how the work should be carried out. The solution, as I see it, is to bring in an independent inspector to determine whether the work is "professionally performed" or not. This concept is more flexible than the definitions in e.g. AMA, but it can still provide some support...