So no external measure at all. It costs to dig up.
I drained myself now in August.
It cost 23,000 kr with excavation help
digging 12,000 kr
gravel, soil 3,000 kr
Platon, pipes, etc. 8,000 kr
How much does all the Platon you advocate for cost??? The difference can't be significant...
And then you still have the problem left, i.e., moisture in the wall...
No, wait until spring and do it properly instead.
I drained myself now in August.
It cost 23,000 kr with excavation help
digging 12,000 kr
gravel, soil 3,000 kr
Platon, pipes, etc. 8,000 kr
How much does all the Platon you advocate for cost??? The difference can't be significant...
And then you still have the problem left, i.e., moisture in the wall...
No, wait until spring and do it properly instead.
The Builder,
A concise and informative post, thanks for that! You seem to have knowledge in the area
But I don't quite understand why there would be more moisture problems than what might already exist in the room by the walls today, from building an interior wall (insulated) if the air in the air gap maintains the same temperature as in the room (which is the case before the wall is built) and circulates it with the room otherwise with fans. (A dehumidifier ensures that the humidity is "kept in check", whatever that may be.)
This negates, in whole or in part, the thermal insulation, but that's not what I'M after right now. I'm willing to spend some money on heating costs in that case.... I just want to build an acoustically acceptable space without getting moisture problems and without spending TOO much time and money on it.
Grateful for further comments!
A concise and informative post, thanks for that! You seem to have knowledge in the area
But I don't quite understand why there would be more moisture problems than what might already exist in the room by the walls today, from building an interior wall (insulated) if the air in the air gap maintains the same temperature as in the room (which is the case before the wall is built) and circulates it with the room otherwise with fans. (A dehumidifier ensures that the humidity is "kept in check", whatever that may be.)This negates, in whole or in part, the thermal insulation, but that's not what I'M after right now. I'm willing to spend some money on heating costs in that case....
I just want to build an acoustically acceptable space without getting moisture problems and without spending TOO much time and money on it.Grateful for further comments!
Hello builder, I can follow your first post no. 30 but in your post no. 33, I don't understand what you mean.
What drives moisture in or out of the wall is the vapor content, and it does not change with temperature. If you ventilate the cavity with indoor air, you will have the same vapor content at the wall's surface as if the wall faced directly toward the room (then the vapor content in the cavity can increase or decrease depending on whether the concrete is currently absorbing or desorbing moisture, but that depends on the moisture content in the air and the concrete and is independent of temperature).
What happens if you lower the wall's temperature is that the relative humidity at the surface (and the wall) increases, thus increasing the risk of mold. If there is also organic material inside a relatively tight layer, and the moisture is currently migrating towards the room, the situation can become critical. Moreover, the risk of the dew point being inside the wall increases, or the time during the year when the dew point is in the wall is extended.
However, by insulating the wall's inside, you can reduce the heat storage in the ground, which can drive moisture inward in the wall. (The ground's relative humidity is always 100%, and thus the vapor pressure in the ground depends directly on the ground's temperature. If the vapor pressure in the ground is higher than the vapor pressure in the concrete/room, moisture is driven inward if the outer moisture barrier is not intact.)
It is also possible to reduce ground warming through external insulation. The concrete wall then becomes significantly warmer, and the risk of condensation in the wall decreases significantly. The wall's surface becomes warmer with less risk of mold. If the old external moisture barrier/vapor barrier is not removed during insulation, there must be a way for moisture to migrate out of the wall on the inside.
The concrete's moisture-storing capacity will affect how moisture migrates and is a problem because it becomes a dynamic process where sometimes moisture is stored up, and sometimes it dries out. The situation is further complicated by temperature variations in the ground.
What drives moisture in or out of the wall is the vapor content, and it does not change with temperature. If you ventilate the cavity with indoor air, you will have the same vapor content at the wall's surface as if the wall faced directly toward the room (then the vapor content in the cavity can increase or decrease depending on whether the concrete is currently absorbing or desorbing moisture, but that depends on the moisture content in the air and the concrete and is independent of temperature).
What happens if you lower the wall's temperature is that the relative humidity at the surface (and the wall) increases, thus increasing the risk of mold. If there is also organic material inside a relatively tight layer, and the moisture is currently migrating towards the room, the situation can become critical. Moreover, the risk of the dew point being inside the wall increases, or the time during the year when the dew point is in the wall is extended.
However, by insulating the wall's inside, you can reduce the heat storage in the ground, which can drive moisture inward in the wall. (The ground's relative humidity is always 100%, and thus the vapor pressure in the ground depends directly on the ground's temperature. If the vapor pressure in the ground is higher than the vapor pressure in the concrete/room, moisture is driven inward if the outer moisture barrier is not intact.)
It is also possible to reduce ground warming through external insulation. The concrete wall then becomes significantly warmer, and the risk of condensation in the wall decreases significantly. The wall's surface becomes warmer with less risk of mold. If the old external moisture barrier/vapor barrier is not removed during insulation, there must be a way for moisture to migrate out of the wall on the inside.
The concrete's moisture-storing capacity will affect how moisture migrates and is a problem because it becomes a dynamic process where sometimes moisture is stored up, and sometimes it dries out. The situation is further complicated by temperature variations in the ground.
No, no, and no again.
It is the partial pressure difference that drives diffusion processes, such as moisture migration in walls. Nature strives to even out differences, and this occurs spontaneously. In this case, it is the concentration variations that spontaneously even out. The temperature has nothing to do with it.
I quote from Gösta Hamrin Building Technology, Building Physics: Diffusion goes from higher absolute moisture content to lower, i.e., from higher to lower vapor content (g/m^3), not from higher to lower RH.
For those interested in moisture/water protection, you can read the Moisture Handbook by Nivert, previously active at LTH.
The air gets its vapor pressure not from the temperature but from the presence of water vapor. The vapor pressure is independent of the temperature down to the substance's dew point. When it becomes so cold that the vapor begins to condense, the vapor pressure will depend on the temperature and be the same as the saturation vapor pressure. Graphically illustrated in a Mollier diagram.
The dew point depends on the saturation vapor pressure at the specific temperature. The temperature dependence of the saturation vapor pressure is non-linear and increases with rising temperature. Simply put, the air can "carry" more moisture. More in detail, one must analyze evaporation from a thermodynamic perspective. There, the saturation moisture content at a certain temperature is determined by what provides the system with optimal entropy/energy distribution, which is the same as having the most possible states.
As for the mentioned fabric, which is waterproof but diffusion-open, it has nothing to do with different molecular sizes. There is one kind of water, not several (except that hydrogen occurs in radioactive isotopes). The difference is that the moisture inside is in the vapor phase, while rainwater is in the liquid phase, two entirely different things. The moisture/vapor can move out through the small holes, but the water, held together by intermolecular forces, cannot pass because the drop is too large. The drop is also cold, so its vapor pressure is low. For a thorough analysis, the surface's hydrophobic properties and surface tension must also be considered. If you sit on a wet surface with these rain suits, body heat will evaporate the water, and the vapor will move inward, making you wet in the bottom. (This technique can be used to build solar-powered desalination plants)
Regarding basement walls, one also has to consider poor drainage, capillary absorption of groundwater, the ground's moisture content, and capillary absorption in the facade, which can condense during cold seasons and drain downward.
It is the partial pressure difference that drives diffusion processes, such as moisture migration in walls. Nature strives to even out differences, and this occurs spontaneously. In this case, it is the concentration variations that spontaneously even out. The temperature has nothing to do with it.
I quote from Gösta Hamrin Building Technology, Building Physics: Diffusion goes from higher absolute moisture content to lower, i.e., from higher to lower vapor content (g/m^3), not from higher to lower RH.
For those interested in moisture/water protection, you can read the Moisture Handbook by Nivert, previously active at LTH.
The air gets its vapor pressure not from the temperature but from the presence of water vapor. The vapor pressure is independent of the temperature down to the substance's dew point. When it becomes so cold that the vapor begins to condense, the vapor pressure will depend on the temperature and be the same as the saturation vapor pressure. Graphically illustrated in a Mollier diagram.
The dew point depends on the saturation vapor pressure at the specific temperature. The temperature dependence of the saturation vapor pressure is non-linear and increases with rising temperature. Simply put, the air can "carry" more moisture. More in detail, one must analyze evaporation from a thermodynamic perspective. There, the saturation moisture content at a certain temperature is determined by what provides the system with optimal entropy/energy distribution, which is the same as having the most possible states.
As for the mentioned fabric, which is waterproof but diffusion-open, it has nothing to do with different molecular sizes. There is one kind of water, not several (except that hydrogen occurs in radioactive isotopes). The difference is that the moisture inside is in the vapor phase, while rainwater is in the liquid phase, two entirely different things. The moisture/vapor can move out through the small holes, but the water, held together by intermolecular forces, cannot pass because the drop is too large. The drop is also cold, so its vapor pressure is low. For a thorough analysis, the surface's hydrophobic properties and surface tension must also be considered. If you sit on a wet surface with these rain suits, body heat will evaporate the water, and the vapor will move inward, making you wet in the bottom. (This technique can be used to build solar-powered desalination plants)
Regarding basement walls, one also has to consider poor drainage, capillary absorption of groundwater, the ground's moisture content, and capillary absorption in the facade, which can condense during cold seasons and drain downward.
We begin with your/the Builder's description of the temperatures in the basement wall/ground and how the wall functions/is loaded. It is very good; the only "fault" is that condensation occurs at the temperature where the humidity of the air/concrete is equal to the air's saturation vapor content at that temperature (obtained from a diagram), if you want to be more precise than "it condenses near zero degrees." If it freezes as you mention, it can crack the concrete.
What I object to is that heat would increase the load on the wall. Unless we are talking about ground heating.
This thing with steam is tricky. Water boils when the water in the pot reaches the same temperature/vapor pressure as the surrounding air pressure.
Water in a glass on the table evaporates, as we all know, even though the temperature is below boiling point. What one must do is rethink against what one is used to; boiling is a special case of vaporization. Steam is always formed if you have water and enough heat to vaporize it, but at temperatures below the boiling point, there is a balance between how much water the air can contain and how much water can evaporate (in the room as a whole).
If we place a glass with "enough" water in a box where the ceiling is a movable piston, and keep the entire system at a constant temperature: Water will evaporate until the concentration of water vapor is equal to saturation. When equilibrium is reached, as many molecules condense as evaporate. (The explanation when/where/how lies in the incomprehensibilities with entropy and the state above.)
At the same time, the amount of gas has increased, but since the piston is movable, the pressure has not increased. What has happened is that "air pressure" has decreased and vapor pressure has increased. We have added the partial pressure of the steam but reduced the partial pressure of "the air."
If we do not have "enough" water, the vapor pressure in the box will not reach saturation vapor pressure, and all the water will evaporate. We then have a relative humidity. If we now heat the box, the piston will move, but the partial pressures and total pressure will remain constant.
If there is a surface in a room that is as cold or colder than the temperature that corresponds to the saturation vapor pressure for the vapor pressure present in the room, steam will condense on the surface.
This is what is utilized in automatic defrosting of freezers (it includes one more phenomenon, that moisture is "drawn" to the coldest surface).
If the temperature is lowered, steam will condense in the air instead. This is what we see in fog, but also when we open a beer bottle.
What I object to is that heat would increase the load on the wall. Unless we are talking about ground heating.
This thing with steam is tricky. Water boils when the water in the pot reaches the same temperature/vapor pressure as the surrounding air pressure.
Water in a glass on the table evaporates, as we all know, even though the temperature is below boiling point. What one must do is rethink against what one is used to; boiling is a special case of vaporization. Steam is always formed if you have water and enough heat to vaporize it, but at temperatures below the boiling point, there is a balance between how much water the air can contain and how much water can evaporate (in the room as a whole).
If we place a glass with "enough" water in a box where the ceiling is a movable piston, and keep the entire system at a constant temperature: Water will evaporate until the concentration of water vapor is equal to saturation. When equilibrium is reached, as many molecules condense as evaporate. (The explanation when/where/how lies in the incomprehensibilities with entropy and the state above.)
At the same time, the amount of gas has increased, but since the piston is movable, the pressure has not increased. What has happened is that "air pressure" has decreased and vapor pressure has increased. We have added the partial pressure of the steam but reduced the partial pressure of "the air."
If we do not have "enough" water, the vapor pressure in the box will not reach saturation vapor pressure, and all the water will evaporate. We then have a relative humidity. If we now heat the box, the piston will move, but the partial pressures and total pressure will remain constant.
If there is a surface in a room that is as cold or colder than the temperature that corresponds to the saturation vapor pressure for the vapor pressure present in the room, steam will condense on the surface.
This is what is utilized in automatic defrosting of freezers (it includes one more phenomenon, that moisture is "drawn" to the coldest surface).
If the temperature is lowered, steam will condense in the air instead. This is what we see in fog, but also when we open a beer bottle.
leca, ventilated hat profiles, plasterboard, and some small fan that creates negative pressure in the wall...the same thing that, for example, ghia and nivell do with floors...should work...then you can use, for example, osb too without having to sweat at night
Geez, what impressive discussions about humidity etc.
Anyway, this weekend I will install a temp/humidity sensor on both the in/out side of "my" wall construction in the boiler room. So next week, we'll also have some empirical measurements to ponder over
Anyway, this weekend I will install a temp/humidity sensor on both the in/out side of "my" wall construction in the boiler room. So next week, we'll also have some empirical measurements to ponder over
The builder wrote:
Had I loved partial diff. equations, yes, but no. However, I have met PhD students, and they are good at partial.diff. the reality these equations described they had less of a grasp on.
I just want to understand how it works, but in practice, it's easiest to look up the solution in a book and not ponder too much. The risk is, of course, that it's wrong because you didn't understand the background.
Moisture mechanics, whether you call it fun/hopeless/horribly easy, it's not, anyway. :
No, it's not quite that bad.Question to poiu:
Doctor in technical physics or?
Had I loved partial diff. equations, yes, but no. However, I have met PhD students, and they are good at partial.diff. the reality these equations described they had less of a grasp on.
I just want to understand how it works, but in practice, it's easiest to look up the solution in a book and not ponder too much. The risk is, of course, that it's wrong because you didn't understand the background.
Moisture mechanics, whether you call it fun/hopeless/horribly easy, it's not, anyway. :
Which is an excellent example of why one should, as far as possible, understand the formulas. I assume the Builder "looked" at the construction with Newton's force equation, which the math genius couldn't do. But one can also fool oneself by looking at something without calculating, e.g., a beam on three support points. How much is the middle support stressed, but I think we'll have to take that in an off-topic thread.
Minerit boards are probably the best because they don't mold, but if you plan to tile on them, make sure to buy wet room minerit; otherwise, the tiles will fall off. The downside of minerit is that they are expensive boards, about 600:- per board. You could maybe use polystyrene between the studs behind the drywall to protect the back of the drywall, making it cheaper, but then you can't have a moisture barrier on the drywall as it would be too tight with double insulation (risk of condensation between the layers).
Hello everyone!
I'm also planning to convert a basement room into a home theater. I have drained the outside with isodrän. I'm considering gluing a carpet directly onto the wall and floor. A carpet that can breathe. Or I might use steel studs and screw up plasterboard, with vent strips at the floor and ceiling. The advantage of using studs is that you can hide wires and such in them. But what about the moisture again? Since I've drained it, I should be on the safe side, right?
Here's a picture of what the wall looks like.
/Sam
I'm also planning to convert a basement room into a home theater. I have drained the outside with isodrän. I'm considering gluing a carpet directly onto the wall and floor. A carpet that can breathe. Or I might use steel studs and screw up plasterboard, with vent strips at the floor and ceiling. The advantage of using studs is that you can hide wires and such in them. But what about the moisture again? Since I've drained it, I should be on the safe side, right?
Here's a picture of what the wall looks like.
/Sam
Hello!
I'm planning to furnish my basement, which is "on average" half below ground. The ground slopes, in other words. Naturally, I'll be placing a blue Platon on the floor. The interior wall will consist of (air gap, 70mm steel stud, OSB, and gypsum). I intend to ventilate both the floor baseboard and the ceiling molding.
My concern is that I have high soundproofing requirements, as I'll be making music in the space and want to minimize disturbance to the surroundings :-/.
But soundproofing interior walls in basement spaces seems particularly tricky.
I know I can also clad the inside of the exterior wall with a Platon system and thereby get ventilation through the floor and ceiling ventilation. But I'm wondering:
1: What purpose does the Platon mat on the wall serve that can't be achieved with a traditional air gap?
2: Does it have a function beyond being an expensive spacer? Does it also act as a moisture barrier?
3: If YES to 2, can't I then cover the back of the stud, closest to the exterior wall, with age-resistant plastic?
4: Should I also use plastic closest to the OSB or gypsum?
My idea is based on a ventilated floor and wall where the air from the interior room can move freely towards the "old" wall and floor surfaces.
Thus, the walls consist of: Existing exterior wall, air gap, plastic, 70mm steel stud+insulation, OSB, plastic, gypsum.
5: Will I encounter problems in the construction in the area between the plastic layers?
Grateful for answers
"bonas"
I'm planning to furnish my basement, which is "on average" half below ground. The ground slopes, in other words. Naturally, I'll be placing a blue Platon on the floor. The interior wall will consist of (air gap, 70mm steel stud, OSB, and gypsum). I intend to ventilate both the floor baseboard and the ceiling molding.
My concern is that I have high soundproofing requirements, as I'll be making music in the space and want to minimize disturbance to the surroundings :-/.
But soundproofing interior walls in basement spaces seems particularly tricky.
I know I can also clad the inside of the exterior wall with a Platon system and thereby get ventilation through the floor and ceiling ventilation. But I'm wondering:
1: What purpose does the Platon mat on the wall serve that can't be achieved with a traditional air gap?
2: Does it have a function beyond being an expensive spacer? Does it also act as a moisture barrier?
3: If YES to 2, can't I then cover the back of the stud, closest to the exterior wall, with age-resistant plastic?
4: Should I also use plastic closest to the OSB or gypsum?
My idea is based on a ventilated floor and wall where the air from the interior room can move freely towards the "old" wall and floor surfaces.
Thus, the walls consist of: Existing exterior wall, air gap, plastic, 70mm steel stud+insulation, OSB, plastic, gypsum.
5: Will I encounter problems in the construction in the area between the plastic layers?
Grateful for answers
"bonas"
Musical instruments create airborne sound and structure-borne sound... Structure-borne sound especially from speakers and drums. You can get rid of these by placing them on springy things... Which is not entirely uncomplicated. What gadgets will you have in the room? Drum set? Fat guitar cabinets? Or is it a recorder symphony that you're going for... Dimension according to this... Don't forget the ceiling at all costs... And put effort into the floor if you have amps and stuff... Then room acoustics come in, which are worse than the humidity problem, which is relatively simple in this context...
If you are going to play music in the room, the room acoustics will be the determining factor no matter what you do. The humidity problem comes second and is relatively easy to do something about...
If you are going to play music in the room, the room acoustics will be the determining factor no matter what you do. The humidity problem comes second and is relatively easy to do something about...
Hello again!
(Of course, I mean NOT to disturb )
Ok, thanks for your posts. It feels good to get some advice.
The wall construction will henceforth be done according to the builder's advice. Thank you for them, completely in line with my thoughts.
When it comes to acoustics, I thank you for your opinions and tips, but I don't need any more advice as I have fairly extensive experience in that area. Thanks anyway.
/bonas
(Of course, I mean NOT to disturb
)Ok, thanks for your posts. It feels good to get some advice.
The wall construction will henceforth be done according to the builder's advice. Thank you for them, completely in line with my thoughts.
When it comes to acoustics, I thank you for your opinions and tips, but I don't need any more advice as I have fairly extensive experience in that area. Thanks anyway.
/bonas