Yes, I've read their information very carefully along with a number of other manufacturers' information. I have also talked to some of them, and it's partly where I got the information that the floor becomes slower with a thicker floor on top of the coils.Jan-L said:
Then when the plumbing company said from experience that you might have to increase the heat, it seemed pretty clear to try to find a better solution.
Moreover, it is the case that all the major underfloor heating manufacturers have one thing in common: they prefer to sell their grooved chipboard, which is much more expensive than regular chipboard (about 3 times). They would rather not see any other solution.
What I don't understand in your reasoning with 22 mm chipboard is why 28 mm spacing couldn't be load-bearing on 600 mm center-to-center joists.
For a 12 mm chipboard should at least be able to even out the relatively small gaps that form between the spacing panels.
My thought is this: If 22 mm chipboard is load-bearing at 600 mm center-to-center, then 12 mm chipboard should be able to even out about 20 mm gaps between the spacings.
Or am I completely off base?
... couldn't resist the last little tip -MathiasS said:
)) there were a few mix-upsYes, yes, a bit seriously now, cc60 is clearly supportive/non-buckling at least for decking. But in interior flooring, maybe it's different. Are the weights so different?
When you test a 120x28 compared to a 22 mm chipboard, it almost feels like the chipboard flexes more. However, neither of them was screwed and just lay loose on the beam layer.
Just a small wonder, when is gypsum a good idea on underfloor heating? In the bathroom maybe?
I am not an expert on flexural rigidity or similar matters. But I just don't think you'll get the same rigidity in your floor using 12 mm chipboard plus some 28-timber and 45 x 45. It might work, or it might not. In your 12mm chipboards, you probably don't have any tongue and groove either, right? In that case, you can't glue them together, which is another reason not to gamble on a custom construction. Additionally, floor chipboard and wall chipboards do not have the same properties. Floor chipboard is much harder.
It's not the same thing to even out gaps as it is to construct a floor that doesn't give way.
Anyway, I've given advice on how I would have done it, hope your floor turns out well.
Kind regards, Janne!
It's not the same thing to even out gaps as it is to construct a floor that doesn't give way.
Anyway, I've given advice on how I would have done it, hope your floor turns out well.
Kind regards, Janne!
Now I think you've missed some posts here. I have already, after tips from others, skipped the idea of placing the battens lowered in the floor joists (for other reasons).Jan-L said:I'm not an expert on flexural rigidity or the like. But I just don't think that you get the same stiffness in your floor with the help of 12 mm chipboard plus some 28-timber and 45 x 45. ......
Now I've at least given tips on how I would have done it, hope your floor turns out well.
Regards Janne!
However, it is probably the case that this construction could be made load-bearing with no problems; it's mostly a question of the spacing measure for the blocking and possibly replacing them with maybe 45X70.
Referring to 120x28 as some timber makes one not take you very seriously, since that timber is at least, for a patio, a load-bearing and non-yielding surface at cc60.
Try fastening a 120X28 board at cc60 and jumping on it, then you'll see what I mean. I have a whole 70 m2 patio to test on, which has precisely that construction.
I never claimed that the floor chipboard would be part of the load-bearing section of the construction; this would be up to the battens.
Regarding the floor chipboard, I think you might want to take a look at www.swedspan.se. They manufacture chipboards, and they have a quite large range of different thicknesses of floor chipboard. Among others, they have one called "Rego," which is precisely the model I have—it is specifically designed to level floors during renovations. It is tongue and groove and should be glued just like 22 mm chipboard.
I am usually very thorough in my investigations before carrying out a project; this is part of this preparation.
Sure, I have read on swespan's website before, and I've also talked to their technical support now and then. I haven't worked with rego specifically, and the first thing I read is that it is laid floating on a load-bearing subfloor. If you think your decking on the patio is as solid as a load-bearing subfloor should be, then go ahead for sure! In the Uponor link on page 13, there is a floor construction that I assume resembles the one you plan to carry out, the spars across the joists. There it says at least a 22 mm chipboard, I can't understand why Uponor would recommend it if it was completely unnecessary and just as doable with only half as thick chipboard. But maybe you don't take either me or Uponor that seriously. In any case, I just wanted to help and think it would be a shame if you invest a lot of work and money into a project that you are not satisfied with later on. Regards, Janne.
In the Uponor link on page 13, there is a floor construction that I assume resembles the one you plan to carry out, the spars across the joists. There it says at least a 22 mm chipboard, I can't understand why Uponor would recommend it if it was completely unnecessary and just as doable with only half as thick chipboard. But maybe you don't take either me or Uponor that seriously. In any case, I just wanted to help and think it would be a shame if you invest a lot of work and money into a project that you are not satisfied with later on. Regards, Janne.The only thing that felt a bit unnecessary in your posts were certain comments, which felt a bit condescending.Jan-L said:
I agree with the majority of what you say and believe you are right, also with uponor's information.
My problem is just that I want to find the best solution both in terms of load-bearing capacity and heat efficiency. In that case, Uponor's solution with a 22 mm chipboard is not the best from a heat perspective. It works, but is not optimal.
The optimal solution is their 22 mm grooved chipboard, which if I understand correctly can even handle 7 mm laminate directly on. However, it is very expensive and causes a lot of waste during installation.
If I am forced to reduce the center-to-center measurement for the joists, I will do it, because I do not want a floor that flexes.
As I said, I will not implement my construction until I am completely convinced it will be good.
Thank you for your comments and feedback, they always help.
Just one more reflection:
An interesting observation I made in the Uponor link on page 13 is that a load-bearing structure according to them is 120X28 plus 15 mm lamell package. It was listed as an alternative to chipboard 22 mm.
My construction was intended as 120x28, 12 mm chipboard, 7 mm laminate.
However, there is certainly a difference in load-bearing capacity between the 15 lamell package and 12 mm chipboard plus 7 mm laminate.
But I'm probably not completely wrong, although as I said earlier, this must be investigated much more thoroughly before anything can begin to be built.
Isn't there anyone here who knows something about the load-bearing capacity of different materials?
An interesting observation I made in the Uponor link on page 13 is that a load-bearing structure according to them is 120X28 plus 15 mm lamell package. It was listed as an alternative to chipboard 22 mm.
My construction was intended as 120x28, 12 mm chipboard, 7 mm laminate.
However, there is certainly a difference in load-bearing capacity between the 15 lamell package and 12 mm chipboard plus 7 mm laminate.
But I'm probably not completely wrong, although as I said earlier, this must be investigated much more thoroughly before anything can begin to be built.
Isn't there anyone here who knows something about the load-bearing capacity of different materials?
Hi again, the question is if the new roof trusses lie across the old ones (220+220)? If so, you will not have a problem with the floor being bouncy if you do the rest right. You mentioned in some of the later posts that you already acquired 12mm chipboard, so I, along with others in the forum, assume you want and plan to use them too. If I were in your shoes, my setup would resemble yours.trimsten said:
First and foremost, I would ensure that the heat cannot go downward while also insulating against impact noise. This is done in the simplest way possible, for example, loose fill, leftover insulation, or if there is polystyrene available. We used polystyrene at the bottom and filled up with loose fill to eliminate two types of noise (high and low frequency) according to a tip in this forum. Additionally, we got good thermal insulation for the underfloor heating. Then I would lay 28x120 spars. The distance between the spars? Well, I would primarily lay heat distribution plates on the spars. I assume the underfloor heating pipes you plan to choose are 16mm, right? Then about 20mm distance should be sufficient, but not less. However, it's safest to check the installation instructions or call the supplier. Then I would lay building plastic with 20cm overlap at the joints and felt paper, and finally the laminate across the spars. The building plastic might be a bit "over kill" but it's what some professionals recommend. I don't think it's anything to worry about considering the low cost and that it might still prevent the floor from warping if warm and humid air comes up from the ground floor.
I don't believe, contrary to some others in this thread, that you'll have problems with too much bounce in the floor. You have 28mm spars and they are close together. You have chipboard and laminate, each of which is stiff on its own. One must consider that the weight when you put your foot down is distributed over a large area. If you are unsure whether the concept holds, you can always test-lay a couple of square meters without screwing or gluing anything, to see if it bounces or not.
No, the trusses are laid on top along with the old ones, however, I have two bearing walls straight through on the ground floor. This part is calculated by a company and should, according to the constructor, work.kmilic said:
I intend to use 17 mm pipes and then 200 mm on center, I will buy the floor heating from a smaller floor heating company that had good experiences with this type.
I will have to rip 120x28 to achieve the center distance, but that's one of the challenges you have to accept.
Since we previously had loose fill insulation in the old attic, it has been put back and we already have plastic, although it is under the loose fill, naturally due to it being a renovation.
Interesting that someone believes in my idea, I almost thought about giving up and buying 15 mm parquet, but that would be a bit more expensive and you'd have to deal with trying to return some of what you've already purchased.
The best thing would be if someone has already used this construction and knows that it works.
Are you going to lengthen the sparse panel just to be able to lay 17mm pipe? My suggestion is to lay 20mm pipe at cc30, then you lay the sparse panel with a 30mm spacing so it fits right. Before you order from the underfloor heating company, compare prices on sites like byggbo.se. Unless you have very good contacts with the local company, it will be cheaper to shop online. Smaller companies also usually find it difficult to compete with online stores on price simply because they buy in smaller volumes...
The underfloor heating company's experience was that it provided more even heat distribution if you had 17mm pipes at cc 200 and, of course, plates.MathiasS said:
I need to compare the final price before I buy, but from what I've seen, they are well priced.
Sometimes you have to read between the lines.trimsten said:
Floor-heating guys generally find it cumbersome to work with 20mm hose, it's a bit more unruly than 17mm hose => they buy 17mm hose for the installations they do themselves => they have the best price on 17mm hose => they suggest 17mm hose to you and try to make you believe it's better than 20mm hose.
The floor doesn't get warm-striped with 20mm hose. I have 20mm hose throughout the house, and it's not warm-striped anywhere. With 20-hose, there are also fewer loops which keeps down the cost for distributors and connections.
So it's good that I haven't bought anything yet; before I talked to the floor heating company, I was indeed completely set on using 20 mm.MathiasS said:
I'll re-evaluate my research on the subject again and am more inclined to go with 20 mm pipes. It will be much simpler, and I won't have to length-cut 120x28 glesen.
Always good to hear from someone who has a certain product rather than those who install it; it becomes a bit more impartial then.
I also use the 20mm hose, it's not that difficult to lay, especially if you warm it up a bit before laying, for example in a really warm room. Make sure you have someone to help roll out the hose while you gently press it into the plates; if you're alone during the laying, it can be tricky, but that's also the case with 17 and 12 mm hoses. Another advantage of the 20-hose is that you can have longer and fewer loops if necessary. A tip, check Rinkaby Rör's prices, they often offer very good price comparisons. Regards, Janne.
Jan-L, as a bit of information, I can say that I will choose Uponor's construction with sparse and parquet and will return the chipboards (checked with Beijer and it was OK to return them).
Byggmax seemed to have a 15 mm oak parquet at an affordable price, and apparently, you should avoid beech and maple if you're going to have underfloor heating as they tend to move too much. Moreover, I've mostly heard good comments about Byggmax parquet.
Moving on to underfloor heating, does anyone have tips on which system to choose? Personally, I have trouble with the systems that have radio links between the units. I don't understand what they are good for, as you're not going to move the underfloor heating without remodeling...
Byggmax seemed to have a 15 mm oak parquet at an affordable price, and apparently, you should avoid beech and maple if you're going to have underfloor heating as they tend to move too much. Moreover, I've mostly heard good comments about Byggmax parquet.
Moving on to underfloor heating, does anyone have tips on which system to choose? Personally, I have trouble with the systems that have radio links between the units. I don't understand what they are good for, as you're not going to move the underfloor heating without remodeling...