Drain through joist?

[Lity]

Hello!
We have a company here renovating the bathroom, and they have cut into the joists in two places. The joists are 220x70. Inside by the shower, they have cut 13-14cm in height and 20cm wide (a little diagonally), and by the toilet, it's about 8cm in height and 16cm wide. I've tried reading up on Eurocode 5 to understand how big notches are okay, but I only find information about thinner joists.
It's about 3.6m between the supports in the basement. Along the right wall, there is a concrete wall underneath, so the holes they've made are about 70 and 80cm from the support. We've asked the contractor whether they don't need reinforcement, but they don't think so.
Along the left wall, there is the kitchen, so it's quite a heavily loaded area. Can it be correct that they don't need to reinforce despite such large notches? Holes are one thing, but here they've cut out the top of the joists.

When I read the wood guide, I only find tables for notches at supports, not when it's a bit out (I don't know if it means they shouldn't have made the notch so far from the support, or if that still counts as close enough). Anyway, it's not near the middle of the joist...

They have done a lot of other mistakes (which we discovered), which they are now fixing, so we have until Monday to try to get answers on whether they've made a mistake with the joists. They didn't need to run the drains through the joists, as the drains could have been moved down in the basement. Trust is not very high that they know what they're doing...

We've failed to find an inspector or structural engineer, etc., who can come on such short notice. The insurance company wasn't very interested, and thought it was the company's problem.

Sending a somewhat poor flash picture from before they started covering walls and floors.

 

[Husärlivet]

Hi!
We have a company here renovating the bathroom, and they have cut into the joists in two places. The joists are 220x70. Next to the shower, they have cut 13-14cm in height and 20cm wide (a bit diagonally), and by the toilet, it's about 8cm in height and 16cm wide. I've tried reading up on Eurocode 5 to understand how big a cutout is okay, but only find information about thinner joists.
It's about 3.6m between the supports in the basement. Along the right wall, there is a concrete wall underneath, so the holes they've made are about 70 and 80cm from the support. We've asked the contractor if they don't need reinforcement, but they don't think so.
Along the left wall is the kitchen, so it's quite a heavily loaded area. Can it be correct that they don't need to reinforce despite such large cutouts? Holes are one thing, but here they have cut out the top part of the joists.

When I read up in the wood guide, I only find tables for cutouts at the supports, not when it is a bit out (I don't know if that means they shouldn't have made the cutout so far from the supports, or if that still counts as close enough). It is, at least, not near the middle of the joist...

They have made lots of other mistakes (which we discovered), which they are rectifying now, so we have until Monday to try to get an answer if they made a mistake with the joists. They didn't need to run the drains through the joists, as the drains could have been moved down in the basement. Trust is, in other words, not very strong that they know what they are doing...

We've hit a wall finding an inspector/construction engineer etc., who can come at such short notice. The insurance company was not very interested, saying it was the company's problem.

I'm attaching a somewhat poor flash photo from before they started covering walls and floors.

Hi!

Too bad they didn't run it in the basement. At our place, they did that, the only thing I actually asked for, and they obliged. But in your case, you might ask them to reinforce the joists on each side by gluing and screwing on new type 45x95 studs?? There should be space, one would think!!

 

[Lity]

Hi!

It's a shame they didn't run it in the basement. At our place, they did that, the only thing I actually asked for, and they bowed and thanked me. But in your case, maybe you can ask them to reinforce the beams on each side by gluing and screwing on new 45x95 type beams?? There should be space one might think!!

Exactly... It's nice they did that for you! It feels unnecessarily complicated that they did it this way. I don't quite understand why they are fussing about the reinforcement. It shouldn't take any time to do. I'm also worried they will say they can't move the drain to the toilet (it's 2dm off now), because they've already made a hole in the beam. It will be really cramped next to the toilet in that case.

 

[Husärlivet]

Of course the drain can be moved. Ask them to move the drain as soon as possible and ask them to reinforce the joists. You are paying a lot of money so you should get it the way you want it. Period. Don't give in!!!!

 

[Lity]

Of course, the drain can be moved. Ask them to move the drain as soon as possible and have them reinforce the joists. You are paying a lot of money and you should get it the way you want it. Period. Don't give in!!!!

Thank you! Yes, that's how we feel too, but it's so hard to stand your ground when they are so strong in their opinions. I need to practice just responding "fix it" and walking away, haha. Joking aside, we talked today about getting better at asking them to explain why when they say things, because many times it feels like they don't know why they do things but sound convincing. So if we ask them to explain, maybe we'll poke holes in their arguments. At least maybe they'll start thinking before they act (but that might be expecting too much).

 

[Husärlivet]

Thank you! Yes, that's how we feel too, but it's so hard to stand our ground when they are so strong in their opinions. I have to practice just responding "solve it" and walking away, haha. Jokes aside, we talked today about being better at asking them to explain why when they say things because many times it feels like they don't know why they're doing things but sound convincing. So if we ask them to explain, maybe we can poke holes in their arguments. At least they might start to think before they act (but that might be expecting too much).

Hi!

It's a shame they didn't run it in the basement. For us, they did; it's the only thing I actually asked for, and they bowed and thanked me. But in your case, you might ask them to reinforce the beams on either side by gluing and screwing on new ones like 45x95 studs?? There should be space, one would think!!

but you have hired them to do a job for you and are paying for it. It might cost extra if they reinforce and so on, but if you want that even if they say it’s not needed and it costs extra, you just tell them you still want them to do it. If you ask something and they don’t have an answer, just call their manager and ask. You've hired them because you trust them, and then you expect a professional and stable job from their side. You must tell them what you are considering and want, otherwise you will regret it later, I promise you. Do it for your own sake and sleep well at night then☺️

 

[Lity]

but you have hired them to do a job for you and are paying for it. It might cost extra if they have to reinforce and such, but if you want it even if they say it's not needed and it costs extra, you just tell them you want them to do it anyway. If you ask something and they don't have an answer, just call their boss and ask. You have hired them because you trust them and therefore expect a professional and stable job from their side. You must tell them what you are thinking about and want, otherwise, you will regret it later, I can promise you. Do it for your own sake and sleep well at night then☺️

Thanks ☺️ Yes, I'd rather "argue" now than be dissatisfied with the result. And yes, it's such small amounts in the grand scheme of things, so it might be worth it. We should also mention the insulation in the walls. They removed it, but didn't put it back (now that the walls are down again). If we need to pay extra for that too, it's worth it. It's so annoying if it echoes throughout the house from the bathroom.

 

[Husärlivet]

Thank you ☺️ Yes, I'd rather "argue" now than be dissatisfied with the result. And yes, it's such small amounts in the grand scheme of things, so it might be worth it if so. We'll also address the insulation in the walls. They removed it but didn't put it back (now that the walls are down again). If we need to pay extra for that as well, it will be worth it. It would be so boring if the entire house echoes from the bathroom.

good luck now

 

[Lity]

good luck now

Thanks! ☺️

 

[mrsnhp]

Good that you are standing your ground against the carpenter! We also had drainage through the joists, but the drainage could not be rerouted in the basement, so the carpenter reinforced the joists with thick wooden boards with holes for the drainage pipe on both sides of the joist. The drainage went through the joist already before and it had held since the bathroom was renovated in the 70s, but the carpenter thought it was safest to reinforce anyway.

Good luck!

 

[Lity]

Good that you're standing firm against the carpenter! We also had drainage through the beams, but the drainage couldn't be rerouted in the basement, so the carpenter reinforced the beams with thick wooden boards with holes for the drain pipe on both sides of the beam. The drainage had already gone through the beams before, and it had held up since the bathroom was renovated in the 70s, but the carpenter thought it was safest to reinforce it anyway.

Good luck!

Yes, I hope they agree to reinforce.

Thanks! ☺️

 

[Fredrik_T]

Hello!

I think that the floor drain also appears to be incorrectly installed. It should have a kind of "boxed" frame around it.

 

[Mawe85]

Now this might not answer your question, but shouldn't it be 30cc on the studs?! You seem to have 60cc.

 

[Rabbithole]

Lower one of the pipes a bit more so it's possible to bridge the hole in the beam at the top, an extra notched upside-down stud on each side should suffice.

 

[Lity]

Hi!

I also think that the floor drain looks improperly installed. It should have a "box" around it.

Yes, it is both improperly installed and misplaced. So it's going to be moved. I have like a whole A4 with errors they need to fix.