Reference?C Christer Törnros said:
Posting random quotes without a reference is useless. What does the rest of the article say? Does it say for example that mesothelioma takes decades to develop? Who is the source of the claim and what is it based on? Who conducted the study? How are "asbestos-related diseases" defined?
Regarding asbestos - there is a significant difference between being exposed to asbestos at work and doing it as a private person. Legislation regarding occupational exposure exists for a reason. If you don't understand the difference, you should start there...
My professional opinion on the matter is that you should ALWAYS think about your lungs and use respiratory protection when tearing/sawing/cleaning or otherwise exposing yourself to dust/particles. For example, cutting stone/tiles, sawing, insulating, etc.
There is a disproportionately large fear of asbestos compared to other things we breathe in, not to mention what smokers draw deep into their lungs, which is proven to cause many thousands of deaths each year...
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Everything depends on how you want to interpret it. You can think positively, that only 1000 die each year, or the negative side, more than 1000 die each year. You see the same numbers, different ways to present them. Neither is wrong.Davidbagare said:
And if you look at how many people in Sweden die from explosive substances each year, it's certainly well under 1000 per year. So explosive substances could also be considered relatively harmless, one might say. Lovely reasoning you have, know-it-all!
Interesting! And it supports my thoughts a lot. People talk about asbestos. But they don't talk about the dust that arises when, for example, drilling.KristinaRT said:
Do you have any verdicts stating that you can be convicted for causing bodily harm just because you're a tradesperson? Regardless, how do you prove that it was that particular visit that caused the issue?Ohchips said:
Theoretically, it should be possible, right? If an idiot handles something they shouldn't and also in an incorrect way, which is then reported and documented. And the customer later develops mesothelioma. Then it should work. In theory, that is. Then whether in practice it can lead to the punishment of that fool, that's for a court to decide. But no, I don't know if any cases have been ruled on earlier.Bananskalare said:
Then maybe one should be more cautious in how one expresses themselves. I'm struggling to get to that point even in theory. It falters on how do you know the dust you spread contained asbestos, and how can you prove who caused the damage? Was it just that dose or were there more? Do you see the problem?
Then there's lack of intent.
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Smart alek
· östergötland
· 2 667 posts
Moreover, there are probably a number of rulings indicating that it's not illegal to be an idiot...
Asking again if anyone knows where the boundary for craftsmen and asbestos lies. I know they are not allowed to demolish/process it, but can they, for example, carry out a ventilation pipe made of eternit from a house if it could be removed without any damage to the pipe? Just a bit curious if there is a clear boundary on what is considered remediation or processing. As I wrote earlier, even a chimney sweep could theoretically release the same amount of asbestos fibers when walking on an eternit roof.
https://www.byggnadsarbetaren.se/nya-larmsiffror-sa-manga-dor-av-asbest/
This is not a direct reference to my post but still interesting:
https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/4963344
Another article, quite new.
https://arbetet.se/2021/11/22/sa-kan-slarv-med-asbest-fortsatta-barnfamiljen-drabbad/
But such things are surely uninteresting, the banana peeler and company obviously know much better than the Swedish Work Environment Authority, experts, and courts. And as someone said: if a few thousand die a year, what does it matter when we are 10 million inhabitants? And the children playing on the floor in the asbestos dust won't be affected until they are 25-30 years old anyway.
Which asbestos dust? It was an Eternit pipe that was removed seven years ago, meaning it was probably taken away in its entirety and placed in a sealed plastic bag.
There is no indication that the craftsman did not have the required permits.
Completely dizzying thread.
There is no indication that the craftsman did not have the required permits.
Completely dizzying thread.
Both articles (from trade union magazines if I understand correctly?) discuss occupational exposure to asbestos. Something one can have opinions about, but which is not applicable to private individuals, primarily due to the difference in handling hazardous material professionally compared to tearing something down a few times in a lifetime. If one doesn't understand the differences here, I suggest some reading on the subject.C Christer Törnros said:
Secondly, I strongly object to your sarcastic tone. All deaths, regardless of cause, are a tragedy. However, one must consider the risks….
How big is the risk of developing an asbestos-related disease from tearing down a ventilation duct once in a lifetime??? What is your expert opinion?
In this context, one might consider what people commonly die from to get perspective. According to HLF, about 3000 people die from COPD every year. https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/7347100
Mainly caused by smoking, so nearly 3000 deaths that could have been avoided.
Approximately 6000 people died from/with stroke in 2020, according to the National Board of Health and Welfare. https://www.socialstyrelsen.se/statistik-och-data/statistik/alla-statistikamnen/stroke/
Harder to avoid, but some are related to cardiovascular diseases, and these are often manageable in terms of risks.
Of course, one should always minimize the risk of death, whether it involves traffic, occupational exposure to asbestos, stone dust, or solvents, cigarette smoke, or something else dangerous. Naturally, private individuals should also be informed so they understand risk reduction when doing something hazardous occasionally. But you also have to evaluate the risks and act accordingly…. You can get run over when cutting across the street too, so should you not cross the road because of the risk?
Your last statement is so grotesque and absurd that it doesn't even deserve a response.
As mentioned earlier, many things you inhale can damage the lungs. Asbestos dust, mold spores, stone dust, carbon nanotubes, silica particles, beryllium dust, wood dust, etc. Use respiratory protection when cutting, sawing, insulating, etc. Don't start smoking and quit if you do. Evaluate risks objectively, and distinguish between occupational exposure and occasional times in your spare time.
12000 die from smoking each year. 1000 die from asbestos each year.
So there are many things that are dangerous.
12000 is a figure from the National Board of Health and Welfare.
1000 is a figure from a newspaper.
So there are many things that are dangerous.
12000 is a figure from the National Board of Health and Welfare.
1000 is a figure from a newspaper.
I see you're still chatting and you're not much for providing actual facts yourself? Can't you go ahead and link something from a reliable source (preferably an authority) that supports the idea that asbestos isn't dangerous? Feel free to add a link explaining why companies need special permits to handle asbestos materials now if it's not more dangerous than other building dust.
Asbestos can take 30 years before symptoms appear, and in many cases, you can't conclude asbestos unless it's extensive amounts (which are probably the deaths we see in the statistics). As I said earlier, my father has clear symptoms but there is no method to show if it really is due to asbestos. However, it is very likely given what he was doing 30-40 years ago.
Asbestos is "man-made," it doesn't break down, it's invisible to the eye, it's strongly affected by wind (i.e., it can travel far), it requires special filters (forget regular vacuum cleaners, they just spread the fibers even further), which are not typically required for building dust, it stays in the body for life, it causes various issues without necessarily revealing itself, there is no benchmark for how many fibers are required to show symptoms.
Asbestos is everywhere in our environment today, not because we want it, but because we made poor risk assessments in the past. Laws have been enacted to limit and suppress its spread, so why wouldn't we observe them and actually care for those who will take over after us?
That individuals deposit asbestos material themselves at the tip is no big deal, but tearing it down and thereby releasing more fibers is just unnecessarily stupid. That the person in question is ready to take the risk is irrelevant, the problem is our environment.
Well.... 12,000 die each year from smoking... Yet people still smoke. The number 1,000 should be viewed with some skepticism. Asbestos isn't as dangerous as you want to believe. But sure, it's not harmless. You belong to the category that truly believes asbestos is deadly.I Ironside said:
I don't need to worry about my neighbor knocking down their asbestos cement panel, even if some pieces break. Everything gets dispersed in the wind.
If I wipe the floor with a damp cloth, the fibers won't spread in the same way.
Read up?
But what the hell. Are you going to start again? What does smoking have to do with asbestos? You can't draw parallels between the two just because they are lung-based diseases/deaths.
You wrote in another thread that someone was a "troll" based on the fact that he had fewer posts than you. But from your thousand posts, it seems like the majority is just a bunch of rubbish.