Stable, Steel Posts and Concrete Floor Thickness?

[sokrates66]

Hello.

New here on the site.

I'm in the process of converting a barn into a stable. Since horses like to eat wood, I'm considering replacing 4"x 4" wooden posts standing on concrete bases with steel posts with an 80x80 square profile, approx. L= 230cm. There's a hayloft on the upper floor. Would this work?

Total area of the stable is about 64m2 with 4 wooden columns at 4"x 4".

I've also broken up an area of 7x3 M (cow stall and feed table) concrete floor due to ceiling height issues and level differences on the old floor, how thick should the new slab be poured? It's on a gravel bed, the existing slab was made in the 50s without reinforcement and not particularly thick, about 7cm.

Thanks in advance, Tommy.

 

[Ola78]

Saw your post, but it's been a while since you wrote it, so you might have solved the problem. Otherwise, you can bring in a sheet metal worker to cover the wooden posts in an attractive way to protect them; it shouldn't be too complex for an experienced sheet metal worker. Additionally, it saves you a lot of work as you wouldn't have to replace the posts. Otherwise, it seems instinctively like 80*80 posts should hold, but it's probably best to have a structural engineer look at it if you really want to replace them.

Regarding your slab, in new constructions, the slab thickness is usually around 100-120 mm, so that should probably be sufficient for you as well. Use good concrete and make sure to reinforce it properly so it holds, unless you have something particularly heavy, in which case you'll need to reinforce where any point loads might occur.

 

[MaZtoR]

As a sheet metal worker with experience with horses, I would never cover a post in sheet metal near horses. They are large, strong, and stubborn animals. If they manage to tear up the sheet metal, they can injure themselves very seriously.

If it is an old barn, it should be old hard timber that takes ages for the horses to gnaw through. (Unless they are horses that bite unusually much on them.)

 

[Wilfa]

Feel free to use steel posts. And when you cast, don't forget to pull up the reinforcement from the slab at a suitable place so you can equalize stress. Normal "stall thickness" is about 100 mm. I recommend the book "Att bygga häststall" by Per Michanek and Mikael Ventorp. It's very good.

 

[Ola78]

As a sheet metal worker with horse experience, I would never cover a post in metal that is near horses. They are large, strong, and stubborn animals. If they manage to tear up the metal, they can injure themselves very seriously.

If it's an old barn, it should be old, hard wood that takes ages for the horses to gnaw through. (Unless these are horses that bite unusually much on them.)

Hm, interesting point there... the reason I suggested it is that I worked as a farmer with dairy cows a few years ago. A common solution in barns that had wooden posts was to cover them with metal. Admittedly, cows are also big, strong, and stubborn, but the big difference between cows and horses is that cows only have front teeth in the lower jaw, whereas horses also have them in the upper jaw. If you've ever been nipped by a horse, you know what I'm talking about. This results in them being able to get a completely different grip on the metal if there's an edge. However, I didn't think that if you seamed a sheet together, a horse could get it up, but there I was probably wrong. So my suggestion wasn't as good as I thought; maybe I should have considered the teeth :S It's good that you brought it up, MaZtoR, and corrected me.

 

[Tyresö]

The concrete slab is done like any other slab, 10 cm thick and 10 mm reinforcement meshes with at least 20 cm overlap in all directions. You need to check the size of the edge beams with a structural engineer - and then you also ask how many loops of reinforcement bars you should place in them.

The type of concrete must be a "drying concrete," i.e., low WCR-value (0.38) for the concrete to withstand the urine that the horses will soak it with. Concrete with a low WCR-value is 40 - 50% more expensive than regular villa slab concrete because it contains enormous amounts of cement (it's the cement content that determines the price). The concrete is very expensive, but regular concrete is corroded by the animals' urine.

An important thing when the slab is being cast is: The concrete surface must absolutely not be smoothed or polished because a smooth surface causes hooved animals to slip. When the surface is almost hard enough to crawl out on with 2 styrofoam boards, you make rake marks with a broom, so the horses have good traction.

A very important thing is that you cast a lightning conductor cable into the reinforcement bars - the copper cable is very expensive, but it's a legal requirement for it to be present in stable buildings and cast in because the animals' urine makes the concrete conductive through the reinforcement meshes. The reinforcement meshes must also be screwed together - or even better - place a weld bead in each mesh, so all the meshes are guaranteed to be in contact with each other - it's not legal to just lay the meshes on top of each other and rely on them conducting.

A few small details to consider before casting a stable slab...

 

[saturnus]

Yes, you have probably got most of the above post; 100 mm concrete in the floor is okay. The square profiles are okay too, but I think the number is too small, considering the floor area. Those loft floors tend to be made of sturdy wood, admittedly, but they also resemble a roller coaster. A few more profiles probably wouldn't hurt; you could perhaps use the square profiles as frames for the box doors in the same process. It's easy to weld the posts for the hinges onto the profile, so the doors will never hang down. I have built some stables, so I know what it usually looks like. A window per box is also appreciated by the horses.

 

[saturnus]

You make the concrete slab like any other slab, 10 cm thick and 10 mm reinforcing mesh with at least 20 cm overlap in all directions. You need to check the size of the edge beams with a structural engineer - and then you also ask how many loops of reinforcing bars you should lay in there.

The type of concrete must be a "drying concrete" with a low WCT value (0.38) so that the concrete can withstand the urine that the horses will drench it with. Concrete with a low WCT value is 40 - 50% more expensive than regular residential slab concrete because it contains enormous amounts of cement (it is the cement content that determines the price).
The concrete is very expensive, but regular concrete is corroded by animals' urine.

An important thing when the slab is cast is: The concrete surface must not be smoothed or polished because a smooth surface causes hooved animals to slip. When the surface is almost hardened enough for you to crawl out on it with 2 sheets of polystyrene, you make scratches with a broom, so the horses get a good grip.

A very important thing is that you cast a lightning conductor cable into the reinforcing bars - the copper cable is very expensive, but it is law that it must be present in stable buildings and be embedded because the animals' urine makes the concrete conductive via the reinforcing mesh. The reinforcing meshes must also be screwed together - or even better - put a weld spot on each net, so that all the nets have guaranteed contact with each other - it is not legal to just lay the nets on each other and rely on them conducting.

A few little details to think about before casting a stable slab....

Yes, you are right, Tyresö, urine is strong stuff. I notice it when the morning pee hits the Ifö toilet, it crackles in the glaze:blushing:

 

[Tyresö]

Hahaha, well, that only applies to Saturday mornings when you've been drinking prepared tequila half the night

 

[saturnus]

It is a potencialequalizer Tyresö is talking about, for it to function correctly, the mats should be interconnected with an 8 mm galvanized iron wire. This has nothing to do with lightning conductors.

 

[Tyresö]

It is a potential equalizer Tyresö is talking about, for it to work properly, the mats should be connected with an 8 mm galvanized iron wire. This has nothing to do with the lightning conductor.

Hahaha, that's probably how the function works; I just know it needs to be done without really knowing why. But the rules say that wire is not enough - the nets must be attached to each other with a screw connection or a solid weld - the connection comes with the copper cable package, there is a ready-made concept to buy.

 

[saturnus]

Hahaha, that's probably how the function is, I just know it's supposed to be done without really knowing why. But the rules say that it's not enough with thread - the nets must be attached to each other with a screw connection or a proper weld bead - the connection is included in the copper cable package, there is a ready-made concept to buy.

Yes, you don't need to be ashamed of that. I opened a thread about the potensialutjämnaren a few years ago when I poured the slab for my house. My electrician is a stickler for the rules and forced me to include such an equalizer, as the rules require it, and it's the electrician who is responsible for the installation. When I showed my electrician what the knowledgeable here on the Forum wrote, he was scared. Today, people have probably read up, and know that the lightning conductor must not be connected to the main panel, but the potensialutjämnaren can be.

 

[prototypen]

I have skipped my stable plans, but I managed to read that if the horses are gnawing on the interior, give them a fresh tree to gnaw on.

Equipotential bonding has to do with lightning and electrical faults; it's better if everything conducts electricity equally, having the same potential.
If everything has the same potential, no (deadly) current can flow, and horses are probably the most sensitive domesticated animals.

(it is supposedly true that an electric sheep fence can kill a horse)

Protte

 

[Tyresö]

An additional detail about the potency enhancer... or however you spell it.....

It is also a law that the copper cable fastening in the rebar must be photo-documented when it is mounted and a photo taken during casting - applies if you are going to run the stable commercially. I think it's the insurance companies that impose those requirements.

Such copper cables are embedded in all sports hall floors as well - despite there being a rubber mat on the floor and everyone wearing rubber-soled shoes - but the builder must simply follow the law to get the construction approved.

 

[Wilfa]

An additional detail about the potenshöjare....or however it's spelled.....

It is also required by law that the copper cable fastening in the rebar is photographed when it is installed and a photo taken during the pouring - applicable if you are going to run the stable commercially. I believe it's the insurance companies that set those requirements.

Such copper cables are also embedded in all sports hall plates - even though there is a rubber mat on the floor and everyone also wears rubber soles on their shoes - but it is simply for the builder to follow the law to get the construction approved.

No, there is no such law. Insurance companies do not write laws . But, when everyone here in the thread talks about potential equalization, it is the same as when I wrote voltage equalization earlier in the thread. In the industry, they talk about "SUS and DUS," abbreviations that stand for voltage equalizing systems and partially voltage equalizing systems. DUS is when you have an old stable, do not pour a new floor, and therefore cannot access the old rebar. SUS is when the rebar is also connected.

Then concerning the surface treatment of the floor, it is absolutely right that it should not be polished. It is best to have a slightly smoother floor in the stalls and a rougher surface in the aisles. In the stalls, a brushed surface is perfect. In the aisle, you could, for instance, use a plastic rake to make grooves. Remember to make the grooves across the main direction of movement, not along it. And once again, read "Building Equestrian Facilities." It is the most comprehensive and complete literature you can find on the subject.

It is also not wrong to hire a professional. For instance, the County Agricultural Societies around the country often have construction advisors. And don't forget to talk to the County Administrative Board if you are building for more than 5 horses, as pre-assessment is required.