I have bought my neighbor's apartment and will install sliding doors between the living rooms for maximum light and flexibility (orange marking in the image).
The city planning office wants a technical notification since we are changing the fire compartment boundary, but also wants a construction drawing with load-bearing details if it is a load-bearing structure.
Originally there was just an empty attic above the brick wall, but we have built an extra thick gypsum wall up there when we furnished the attic (135x45 + 45x45 frame with double gypsum on both sides). I guess the wall weighs a maximum of 75 kg/sqm, is 5x5 meters and under a sloping roof, so under a ton in total (unevenly distributed over a 5-meter span up to the house's central wall).
Moreover, the gypsum wall doesn't even sit directly on the brick wall but rests over the next beam (see image and drawing, the brick wall is where I've drawn an orange line).
The floor structure up there is 130 x 270 mm.
Can I in good conscience tell the city planning office that the wall down here is not load-bearing and let the construction company demolish and relieve it as they see fit, or should I produce a structural drawing before the construction notification?
Do 1000 kg wooden frame walls make structural engineers laugh?
The wall was surely load-bearing before the new wall in the attic? So the relief should take the old forces and the new ones. To know if the new wall affects it, you must know the old forces for which the load-bearing wall was dimensioned. So the question you're asking is rather ”should I ignore the engineer and take a chance that the old construction was sufficiently over-dimensioned to handle the new opening and new wall on the floor above?”
The mix of photos and your own drawings makes it difficult to comment. You need to know how it is built and why. I would like to see the original drawings and as much of the floor plan as possible.
The mix of photos and your own drawings makes it difficult to comment. One needs to know how it is built and why. I would like to see the original drawings and as much of the floor plan as possible.
Jjustusandersson said:
The mix of photos and your own drawings makes it difficult to comment. One needs to know how it is built and why. I would like to see the original drawings and as much of the floor plan as possible.
Here is a drawing from a previous building permit. I don't have the original drawing from 1920.
I mark the gypsum wall with a green line. The planned opening with orange. In red, I have indicated my apartments which are to be merged.
As I understand it, only the central walls in the length direction of the house are load-bearing from the start. Also, the walls on floor 1 that directly bear a wall on floor 2. I am already in contact with a structural engineer, but I thought I could get a couple of weeks' head start on the technical application if I say that no interventions are made in the load-bearing structure.
Viktor.J said:
The wall was likely load-bearing before the new wall in the attic? So, the unloading should take the old forces and the new ones. So, in order to know if the new wall affects it, you need to know the old forces that the load-bearing wall was dimensioned for. So the question you're asking is
Rather "should I skip the engineer and take a chance that the old construction was sufficiently over-dimensioned to handle a new opening and new wall on the floor above?".
Why do you think it was originally load-bearing? It runs right under parallel with a 270x130 mm. Neighbors who renovated without converting the attic above have demolished it themselves.
Now it's much clearer how it all fits together. The orange wall is definitely not load-bearing. The issue with the fire compartment change remains. The easiest way is probably to shortcut by speaking directly with the responsible fire engineer.
Now you understand much better how it all fits together. The orange wall is clearly not load-bearing. The remaining issue is with the fire compartment alteration. The simplest way is probably to address it by speaking directly with the responsible fire engineer.
Thank you, yes it pays to be clear!
I already have the fire drawing and an approved fire protection description, just need to close the door to the other stairwell with an EI60 wall.
So, the approximately 900 kg timber frame wall in the attic doesn't matter for the relief of the hole? Or?
Roof loads and floor loads are the major loads and these are handled by the outer walls and the core wall. When you start demolishing the partitioning brick wall, be careful so it doesn't collapse. How this is done is important for stability. From a fire spread standpoint, the attic leaves much to be desired, but they adhere to the regulations that were in effect when the building was new, until remodeling begins.
Why do you think it was load-bearing from the beginning? It runs directly under parallel with a 270x130 mm. Neighbors who have renovated without furnishing the attic above have torn it down themselves.
sorry, I read your first post as if that wall was load-bearing. And that's why a building notification etc. was needed. But now I see it says
An IF!
The roof loads and floor loads are the major loads and these are supported by the outer walls and the load-bearing wall. When you start dismantling the apartment-separating brick wall, be careful that it doesn't collapse. How this is done affects stability. From a fire spread perspective, the attic leaves much to be desired, but one adheres to the rules that applied when the house was new until renovation begins.
Is it a waste of money to spend 5,000 SEK on getting a structural drawing before I tear down the wall? Am I getting ripped off? I've planned to hire a company to demolish the wall to avoid any accidents. Is it like bringing a tractor to the sandbox?
It's probably best to simply try to avoid setting things on fire when living in such an old house!
It's never wrong to organize craftsmen. That alone is worth money.
Fireproofing the attic floor + sectioning the attic should be urgent for everyone.
Now I've got the construction drawing, I need to relieve with 2 x ipe 160 beams at 4 m. Just that will probably cost 20k SEK. Then the building committee wanted a quality assurance manager, so there's another 10k SEK.
That's what happens when you want to "make a little hole in the wall“!
8 m IPE 160 costs around 3000 SEK. They weigh 15.8 kg/m and are likely to cost about 25 SEK/kg including VAT. But I don't think it's a good choice. They are only 82 mm wide and a brick is normally 120 mm wide. Very prone to tipping. Then I don't understand where the designer found the loads.
8 m IPE 160 costs closer to 3000 SEK. They weigh 15.8 kg/m and would cost about 25 SEK/kg including VAT. But I don't think it's a good choice. They are only 82 mm wide, and a brick is normally 120 mm wide. Very prone to tipping. I also don't understand where the designer found the loads.
The designer and I guessed it would be 240 mm brick, it's still a very solid interior wall. So it's two IPE 160 side by side bolted together. Then you should be able to lift them by hand to the 2nd floor. A neighbor was relieving the load-bearing wall when they built a staircase. The whole street was blocked off, and a crane brought in a 3 dm wide monster beam weighing 3/4 ton... I don't want to stand there!
As for the loads, they are presented like this.
If the beam costs under 10,000, I'm satisfied.
It's just the construction supervision that's a bit bothersome. I thought the wall wasn't part of the "load-bearing structure" and therefore wouldn't require construction supervision.
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Viktor.J said:
