Elevator noise and other disturbances from the ceiling (live on the top floor)

[Anonymiserad 122206]

If you hear sounds from the basement in that way, I would suspect that schakt are not properly sealed. Hearing someone put down tools through multiple floors requires some form of opening between the levels.

 

[gos84]

Do you know what sound class the residence was built according to? According to the National Board of Housing, Building and Planning's building regulations, it is 25dBA equivalent sound level and 35dBA maximum sound level from elevators in bedrooms and living rooms. Often installation noise is required to meet sound class B, so it should be even lower. It sounds like the higher ceiling height may have caused a too high sound level.
Moreover, the elevator supplier might actually need to come and repair the elevator even if it's new. The elevators are used excessively during constructions, so they are often worn out by the time it's ready to move in.
/building acoustician, though not an expert on elevators.

 

[Pytt]

As the Scout says, this sounds like it might have something to do with the shaft and the actual construction of the framework in some way. You say that no complaints have come in from others, but it might be that the person you spoke with just hasn't had it forwarded to them, so if I were you, I would probably go over to someone else with a similar apartment type and ask if you can listen together and see if it's the same. And perhaps also check with the person who lives on the ground floor, to see if the sound resonates as much in their apartment.

 

[markaner]

The sound you hear on start and stop from the elevator is the brakes. Depending on the brand of the elevator, it is sometimes possible to adjust the stroke length of the brakes, shorter stroke=less sound. Today's elevators no longer have a machine room "in the attic," but the machine and all electronics are located in the shaft on the top floor. If it's not properly executed with rubber hangings etc., it very easily becomes structural noise. If there are more stairwells built in the same way, I suggest checking if you can get into a neighbor's place and listen.

Then we humans perceive sounds very differently, what someone might find incredibly disturbing another might not notice at all. /Regards Claes

After much googling, I have the same impression as you mentioned. Tried other elevators in stairwells and out of 5 elevators, mine is the worst, while 3 don't have that clicking sound that is very loud at all. So I definitely think that should be possible to remove, but regardless, I find the rumble heard in the elevator to be quite loud. It could well be due to missing or poorly placed rubber hangings that cause the concrete to vibrate.

Absolutely, everyone perceives it differently. I go crazy from the sound while my girlfriend thinks it's a bit mildly annoying. Then she doesn't live here full-time either, which of course contributes to not being bothered by it in the same way.

 

[markaner]

If you hear sounds from the basement that way, I would suspect that shafts are not properly sealed. Hearing someone put down tools through several floors requires some form of opening between the floors.

Interesting.. The only thing they say is that they have done everything correctly according to the plan. But if they had built according to the rules, it wouldn't sound like it does, I feel. They claim that the sound travels through the concrete, but I'm more inclined to agree with you, that is, that the sound travels through the elevator shaft above my ceiling.

 

[markaner]

Do you know which sound class the residence is built after? According to the Swedish National Board of Housing, Building and Planning's regulations, it is 25dBA equivalent sound level and 35dBA maximum sound level from elevators in bedrooms and living rooms. Often, installation noise is required according to sound class B, so it should be even lower. It sounds like the higher ceiling height may have caused too high a sound level. Also, the elevator provider might need to come and repair the elevator even if it's new. Elevators are used a lot during construction, so they are often worn out by the time it's ready for moving in. /building acoustician, though not an elevator expert.

No idea really. I’ll ask the project manager I’ve had some contact with. The elevator is running constantly now with the construction workers still around, so it's probably not in top condition. But someone is supposed to have checked the elevator and said it was fine. However, I don't think they've checked the motor or the mounting on the frame...

As the Scout says, this sounds like it might be related to the shaft and the construction of the frame in some way. You say no complaints have come in from anyone else, but it might be that the person you spoke to hasn't had it forwarded to them, so if I were you, I'd probably go over to someone else with a similar apartment type and see if you can listen together and see if it's the same. Also, maybe check with the person living on the ground floor if the sound resonates as much in their apartment.

Quite possible! I myself would like to go check it out because I have no idea what these constructions look like, so it's hard to figure it out by myself.

Anyway, I chased them today and now a building acoustician is coming on Friday to measure sound levels and try to find out why it's noisy and what can be done about it. Depending on the outcome, the next step, as you say, might be to ask those below me if they hear as much drilling as I do and especially ask those in other stairwells if they also hear the sound from their elevators.

 

[Stenkant]

It sounds strange that a new elevator can be so loud. I understand that such noise is very annoying, especially since the elevators run around the clock. I don't think the authority/builders have understood how bothersome it is with noise that one cannot control. Talking about limit values becomes completely wrong because the sound experience is entirely different if it's a constant noise like traffic noise compared to sounds that come and go. For example, one can control their own dishwasher and choose not to run it when one wants to sleep, but if the property's laundry room is very noisy, it can't be influenced, and the sound comes more frequently, which makes the latter type of noise perceived as much worse.

In a friend's rental apartment from the 1960s, there was a very noticeable bang every time the elevator started/stopped, now they have replaced the elevators and the sound has disappeared completely. The old elevators had AC motors, the new ones have pulse-controlled DC motors where one can start the elevator in a more gentle manner. Maybe they have installed some Chinese/Eastern Bloc-made machinery to keep the construction costs down? One could certainly ask exactly where the sound comes from, is it the "brake" that engages/disengages? There should be some form of suspension that isolates such noise.

 

[clabbe]

Sounds strange that a new elevator can make so much noise. I understand that such noise is very irritating, especially since the elevators run around the clock. I don't think the authority/builders understand how annoying it is with sounds that you can't control. Talking about threshold values is completely wrong because the sound experience is entirely different if it is a constant noise like traffic noise compared to sounds that come and go. For example, you can control your own dishwasher and choose not to turn it on when you want to sleep, but if the building's laundry room makes a lot of noise, there's no way to control it, and since the noise occurs more frequently, this type of noise is perceived as much worse.

In an acquaintance's rental apartment from the 60s, there was a very noticeable bang every time the elevator started/stopped. They have now replaced the elevators, and the noise has disappeared completely. The old elevators had AC motors, the new ones have pulse-controlled DC motors that can start the elevator more gently. Perhaps they have installed some Chinese/Eastern European-made machinery to keep construction costs down? One might wonder exactly where the noise is coming from; is it the "brake" engaging/disengaging? There should be some form of suspension that isolates such noise.

As in all construction, it is the money that decides. This means both the shortest possible construction time and the cheapest possible materials. Since the builder usually procures the elevator, it becomes the simplest model. If instead, there had been some demands on a higher number of starts per day, for example, the inventory would have looked completely different. With a higher specification on the elevator, things like noise level and ride comfort come, similar to a car, you get what you pay for... By the way, the elevators are powered by gearless AC machines with the help of frequency converters and not by DC motors! Otherwise, I refer to my previous post in the thread. /Best regards Claes

 

[Marcusskold]

In 2018, I designed a concrete house with similar issues, talked to acousticians, and we decided to add a stud wall with insulation against the elevator wall to eliminate the noise.

 

[markaner]

Sounds strange that a new elevator can make so much noise. I understand that such noise is very annoying, especially as the elevators run around the clock, I don't think the authority/builders have understood how bothersome it is with noise that you can't control. Talking about limit values becomes completely wrong because the sound experience is entirely different if it's a constant noise like traffic noise compared to noise that comes and goes. For example, a personal dishwasher can be controlled and left off when you want to sleep, but if the property's laundry room is very noisy, it can't be controlled at the same time as the noise occurs more often, making the latter type of noise perceived much worse.

In an acquaintance's rental apartment from the 60s, there was a very pronounced bang every time the elevator started/stopped, but now the elevators have been replaced, and the noise disappeared completely. The old elevators had AC motors; the new ones have pulse-controlled DC motors that can start the elevator more gently. Have they perhaps installed some Chinese/Eastern European manufactured machinery to keep construction costs down? One can, of course, ask exactly where the noise comes from, is it the "brake" that engages/disengages? There should be some form of suspension that isolates such noise.

Exactly so. Other things in the home can often be louder, but then you don't turn things on when you want it quiet either. The elevator cage seems to be of the Schindler brand, I don't know if that automatically means they'll install motors, etc., of the same brand as the cage though? The sound comes like a hammer hitting metal just before the elevator stops completely, I think. When the elevator sets, there is also a low-frequency thump.

Designed a concrete building in 2018 with similar problems, talked to an acoustician, and we chose to add a stud wall with insulation against the elevator wall to eliminate the noise.

Do you know if there was an apartment on the top floor too and if the noise came from the ceiling as in my apartment? I'm just curious because one of the guys I talked to, who is somewhat of a construction manager, said that sometimes they install insulation against the elevator wall, but this hasn't been done in my apartment. I wasn't sure if it would help since the noise sounds like it's coming from the ceiling, but at the same time, it is so high that I have somewhat of an echo in the apartment, making it very difficult to locate the sound here.

EDIT: But I think it's the ceiling considering it also sounds like it's coming from the ceiling in the bedroom and bathroom, which are not adjacent to the elevator.

It'll be exciting to see what the acoustician says tomorrow. I'll get back with what is said if anyone is interested or if someone else experiences a similar issue in the future.

 

[Marcusskold]

Exactly. Other things in the home can often be louder, but you don't turn them on when you want silence. The elevator car seems to be of the brand Schindler, though I'm not sure if they automatically install motors, etc., of the same brand as the car? The sound is like a hammer hitting metal just before the elevator stops completely, I think. When the elevator settles, there's also a low-frequency thud.

Do you know if there was an apartment at the top, too, and if the sound came from the ceiling, as in my apartment? I'm finding it a bit interesting because one of the guys I talked to, who is somewhat of a project manager, said that sometimes they put insulation against the elevator wall but that this isn't done in my apartment. I wasn't sure it would help since the sound seems like it's coming from the ceiling, but at the same time, the ceiling is so high that I have somewhat of an echo in the apartment, making it very difficult to locate the sound here.

EDIT: But I think it's the ceiling considering it also sounds like it's coming from the ceilings in the bedroom and bathroom, which aren't adjacent to the elevator.

It will be exciting to hear what the acoustician says tomorrow. I will update with what is said in case anyone is interested or if someone else experiences something similar in the future.

All the apartments from the ground floor up had bedrooms facing the elevator shaft!

 

[Stenkant]

One thing to check is if the sound is (almost) as loud in the corresponding apartment further down in the building. If so, it is structural noise that is difficult to isolate and must be addressed at the source. However, if the sound is (much) louder near the elevator machinery (e.g., by your apartment), it may be possible to isolate the wall/ceiling facing the machine room.
Type of motor, AC/DC - okay, my technical description might not be entirely correct, but in any case, there has been a technological shift concerning the motor and associated control system that allows for smoother start/stop (& uses less electricity). But the sound doesn't have to come from the motor; it can also come from some form of "brake mechanism" that engages when the elevator is about to start/stop.

 

[markaner]

One thing to check is if the sound is (almost) as strong in the corresponding apartment lower in the building, in which case it's structure-borne noise that's difficult to isolate and must be addressed at the source. However, if the sound is (much) stronger near the elevator machine (e.g., near your apartment), it might be possible to insulate the wall/ceiling facing the machine room.
Type of motor, AC/DC - okay, my technical description might not be entirely correct, but in any case, there has been a technological shift regarding the motor and associated control system, allowing for smoother start/stop (& using less power). But the sound doesn't have to come from the motor; it can also come from some form of "braking mechanism" that engages when the elevator starts/stops.

I have always been convinced that it's only in my apartment that it sounds like this. The next step will be to check with a neighbor once the acoustician has given their opinion. I don’t know much about structure-borne noise, but my feeling is that it's mainly low-frequency sounds that travel through the building structure? The sound that resembles a hammer against metal is quite high-pitched. The same goes for noise from tools in the basement. It feels like these sounds are airborne? The strange part is how they then manage to penetrate so much into my apartment with concrete ceilings and walls. Could it be through ventilation?

 

[Avemo]

The elevator car seems to be of the brand Schindler, I don't know if it automatically means that they install engines, etc., of the same brand as the car though? The sound comes like a hammer hitting metal just before the elevator comes to a complete stop, I think. When the elevator sets itself, there is also a low-frequency thud.

If it says Schindler in the car, the rest is likely Schindler too. The bang at the stop is probably the brake. Contactors tend to make audible bangs. But not like a hammer against metal. It's usually an adjustment issue how much the brake bangs. The technical shift that @Stenkant talks about is likely gearless permanently magnetized synchronous motors, which many but not all new elevators have. These can run very quietly. If they don't run quietly, something is wrong. It's probably a settings issue for frequency control. Rubber feet shouldn't be needed on the motor foundation to make it quiet.

The above might be advanced for TS who just wants it to be quiet. But if there's a problem with the elevator being too noisy, it is much more effective to fix the cause of the noise than to try and isolate the sound.

 

[Stenkant]

I think you should check directly with the neighbors; if they have the same problem with noise, you will have more pressure on the issue and it will be easier to get support for actions. An individual condominium owner can be dismissed with talk of limit values. If the building has multiple elevators, you can check with a neighbor in another stairwell.

The acoustician will also find it easier if they get an overview of the entire building.

You should also talk to the board, whether it's a "constructing board" or elected by the members via a meeting.