Know-It-All
· Västra Götaland
· 12 306 posts
What you are looking for are complicated solutions. I would have left it as it is.
But if you must have it sealed, I would go to a carpet store and buy a scrap piece of the cheapest wet room mat they have. Lay it behind and cut at the corners for folding and cut out for penetrations. Then seal with silicone at the joints. The lower part should stick out so any potential leakage runs onto the floor so you discover the leak.
But if you must have it sealed, I would go to a carpet store and buy a scrap piece of the cheapest wet room mat they have. Lay it behind and cut at the corners for folding and cut out for penetrations. Then seal with silicone at the joints. The lower part should stick out so any potential leakage runs onto the floor so you discover the leak.
And install a leak detector that connects to "your phone" if such a thing exists, so you can go on vacation in peace 
PS I have a neighbor whose husband placed a leak detector under the sink cabinets, and it started beeping when he was away. It took a while before we found what was making the noise. But it worked at least as long as someone was home. Hence my suggestion for something that works even when you're on vacation.
/B
PS I have a neighbor whose husband placed a leak detector under the sink cabinets, and it started beeping when he was away. It took a while before we found what was making the noise. But it worked at least as long as someone was home. Hence my suggestion for something that works even when you're on vacation.
/B
Yes, I contacted ARDEX quite promptly for a comment, it wasn't something they mentioned when I asked last time, and I clearly stated that I wasn't planning to mount anything on top of the rubber.Jonatan79 said:
I'll try again and see if I can at least get a response from them.
Yes, actually pipes run crisscross throughout the house and only the kitchen and toilet are protected. If it starts leaking inside a wall, you may have to expect significant costs. The thing is, however, that the risks are very small for leaks, and therefore nothing is generally done about the existing installation.
You should know that where there are more connections, there is also more risk of leakage. And even if the leakage is small, the damage can be significant when the surrounding material is mainly particleboard.
When we installed the kitchen, we thought we had made it waterproof under the sink (with IKEA’s plastic mat). However, it turned out that water often finds a way out, and one glass of water caused quite a bit of damage to the particleboards. Since the stone slab and everything were in place, we had to make the best of the situation without replacing the entire cabinet. The reason for the leak was that when the main water supply was turned on, the mixer leaked slightly, which took a couple of weeks to find. We also didn't have a warning device in the area, so it was pure luck that we saw it since the garbage bins are on top.
Anyway, a mat might not sound so bad after all, it has come up before, but at that time it seemed easier to brush on rubber. I’ll have to check with a carpet store if they have a piece leftover that I can buy.
However, it will be difficult to have an overflow pipe in this case since the pit goes quite far down below the floor level, so I’ll have to settle for an electric warning device.
Yes, I have also thought about that, but unfortunately, it seems a bit more advanced. The most common detector is Dropp-stop 600, and it only alerts with sound.bonor said:
And install a leak detector that connects to "your phone" if there is such a thing, so you can go on vacation with peace of mind
PS I have a neighbor whose husband placed a leak detector under the kitchen sink cabinets, and it started beeping when he was away. It took us a while to find out where the sound was coming from. But it worked as long as someone was home. Hence my suggestion for something that works even when you're on vacation.
/B
Generally, you're away from home for a MAX of 9 hours, so at worst, it could be sounding off for 9 hours. The key is that at least minor leaks can be somewhat contained, preventing too much damage. I do understand, of course, that a major leak can't be prevented without a water cabinet.
ARDEX claims that this issue does not exist with the product they recommended to me. However, it is sensitive to UV light and mechanical wear.
In this case, it is built in, but of course, the door will occasionally be opened to adjust the heat. I asked if there is a protective layer that can be applied, but they do not seem to want to answer. I assume that when it comes to something special like this, they prefer not to answer as there are always additional risks.
Regarding mechanical wear, there are hoses that will rub against the rubber, but they move minimally since the pressure in the heating lines is not likely to change quickly enough.
In this case, it is built in, but of course, the door will occasionally be opened to adjust the heat. I asked if there is a protective layer that can be applied, but they do not seem to want to answer. I assume that when it comes to something special like this, they prefer not to answer as there are always additional risks.
Regarding mechanical wear, there are hoses that will rub against the rubber, but they move minimally since the pressure in the heating lines is not likely to change quickly enough.
My solution to such a problem would be to
First, secure any hoses/pipes or cables that do not go through the bottom.
Seal the bottom carefully with latex or possibly foam sealant for larger holes.
Self-level to a suitable height.
Buy a 2-component waterproofing layer like ardex 7+8, mix it slightly looser than recommended, and pour it on the leveling compound in a layer of 5-15mm.
Brush in stages on the sides and a bit up to create a sealed space.
That's how I will do it in a bathroom where there are a thousand things going up, and it would be impossible to seal everything according to the book; I will also add a warning pipe into the bathroom as there is also a water distribution manifold.
First, secure any hoses/pipes or cables that do not go through the bottom.
Seal the bottom carefully with latex or possibly foam sealant for larger holes.
Self-level to a suitable height.
Buy a 2-component waterproofing layer like ardex 7+8, mix it slightly looser than recommended, and pour it on the leveling compound in a layer of 5-15mm.
Brush in stages on the sides and a bit up to create a sealed space.
That's how I will do it in a bathroom where there are a thousand things going up, and it would be impossible to seal everything according to the book; I will also add a warning pipe into the bathroom as there is also a water distribution manifold.
I spoke with a carpet installer, and he mentioned that it will never work particularly well with carpet in that spot. Especially if I don't have the equipment to melt the carpet together. Instead, he suggested using a waterproof membrane just as we had discussed earlier in this thread.
I therefore bought ARDEX S1-K, Illbruck all-year-round foam sealant and brushes.
After removing the board and loosening the pump, I found that it unfortunately can't be lifted more than about 5 cm as it is short-connected on the right side. This means it's hard to reach under the hoses with a brush. Additionally, 2 of the hoses are actually copper pipes, which are less pliable.
To really reach it, the heating system must be drained and the pipes and hoses disconnected. Not the best idea now when it's the coldest directly. Plus, I don't want to mess with water myself since I know it can sometimes be difficult even for those working with it to get completely sealed.
Sure, I could limit it so that I only apply waterproof membrane on an area as wide as the pump itself. But then comes problem 2: the foam sealant can tolerate a max of 50 degrees and I know that at times our boiler can send out 65 degrees when it's cold. Moreover, I read on several sites that foam sealant isn’t waterproof, on the contrary, it absorbs water and can contribute to mold in adjacent wooden material!? There are supposed to be 2-component foams with closed cells, but they seem hard to find and those you do find say "For professional use only"?
So, regardless of if I manage to get carpet, all-year-round plastic or waterproof membrane in place, I will have problems building up around the sides of the hoses with something that seals.
Sure, it might help to seal under the pump itself if the leak is minor. However, if it's larger, it will instead run to the sides and could cause even greater damage there.
I understand that the only real solution here is to install a water cabinet around the pump. As I understand, such a cabinet costs about 2000 SEK and then labor is added, so I guess it lands at 5000 SEK. It's like insurance; if there's a leak, it will cost many times more to fix but at the same time, the risk of leakage is very small. Not an obvious choice.
The alternative is to just install a moisture detector and hope to hear the alarm before it's too late.
I therefore bought ARDEX S1-K, Illbruck all-year-round foam sealant and brushes.
After removing the board and loosening the pump, I found that it unfortunately can't be lifted more than about 5 cm as it is short-connected on the right side. This means it's hard to reach under the hoses with a brush. Additionally, 2 of the hoses are actually copper pipes, which are less pliable.
To really reach it, the heating system must be drained and the pipes and hoses disconnected. Not the best idea now when it's the coldest directly. Plus, I don't want to mess with water myself since I know it can sometimes be difficult even for those working with it to get completely sealed.
Sure, I could limit it so that I only apply waterproof membrane on an area as wide as the pump itself. But then comes problem 2: the foam sealant can tolerate a max of 50 degrees and I know that at times our boiler can send out 65 degrees when it's cold. Moreover, I read on several sites that foam sealant isn’t waterproof, on the contrary, it absorbs water and can contribute to mold in adjacent wooden material!? There are supposed to be 2-component foams with closed cells, but they seem hard to find and those you do find say "For professional use only"?
So, regardless of if I manage to get carpet, all-year-round plastic or waterproof membrane in place, I will have problems building up around the sides of the hoses with something that seals.
Sure, it might help to seal under the pump itself if the leak is minor. However, if it's larger, it will instead run to the sides and could cause even greater damage there.
I understand that the only real solution here is to install a water cabinet around the pump. As I understand, such a cabinet costs about 2000 SEK and then labor is added, so I guess it lands at 5000 SEK. It's like insurance; if there's a leak, it will cost many times more to fix but at the same time, the risk of leakage is very small. Not an obvious choice.
The alternative is to just install a moisture detector and hope to hear the alarm before it's too late.
Okay, so only a thin layer? Then the risk of cracks due to movements is probably greater, I suspect. This is likely what ARDEX was referring to when they mentioned using pipe collars and similar. I know I've seen some instructional videos where reinforcements were used in the corners, probably to handle movements.
After taking a closer look at the space, I think it will be very uncertain to get it completely sealed even with a waterproofing layer. The reason is that it is uneven; there are some boards here and there, so it's not a smooth and neat box to seal directly. If you're going to apply silicone or other reinforcements in all the corners, it's going to be a lot of work.
Self-leveling compound would have made things much easier, but it doesn't feel right to embed hoses, as it won't be fun if they need to replace something. Then it's probably better to leave it open.
I realize that I won't get a perfect solution here unless I make sure to install a water cabinet, and I don't think it's worth 5000 SEK.
So instead, we'll probably choose to lay age-resistant plastic or a plastic mat at the bottom. It won't stop a major leak, but hopefully, the leak will start small, and with an alarm in the space, we have the opportunity to drain the system before it causes extensive damage. Of course, one could skip the plastic, but then you'll likely incur damage even if the leak is small.
Is it the right choice or not? No idea, but waterproofing doesn't feel safe here unless you really go all in to get it perfect, which probably involves some filling and carpentry.
After taking a closer look at the space, I think it will be very uncertain to get it completely sealed even with a waterproofing layer. The reason is that it is uneven; there are some boards here and there, so it's not a smooth and neat box to seal directly. If you're going to apply silicone or other reinforcements in all the corners, it's going to be a lot of work.
Self-leveling compound would have made things much easier, but it doesn't feel right to embed hoses, as it won't be fun if they need to replace something. Then it's probably better to leave it open.
I realize that I won't get a perfect solution here unless I make sure to install a water cabinet, and I don't think it's worth 5000 SEK.
So instead, we'll probably choose to lay age-resistant plastic or a plastic mat at the bottom. It won't stop a major leak, but hopefully, the leak will start small, and with an alarm in the space, we have the opportunity to drain the system before it causes extensive damage. Of course, one could skip the plastic, but then you'll likely incur damage even if the leak is small.
Is it the right choice or not? No idea, but waterproofing doesn't feel safe here unless you really go all in to get it perfect, which probably involves some filling and carpentry.
I have now installed age-resistant plastic, which was a bit tricky but finally done. There are 2 layers on the wall and 4 in the box itself.
The problem still remains that the water may run out to the right and left if there is a major leak, but this is at least better than nothing.
Also installed a water alarm with 3 sensors in the "box".
The problem still remains that the water may run out to the right and left if there is a major leak, but this is at least better than nothing.
Also installed a water alarm with 3 sensors in the "box".
I have a similar space where the previous owner used foam at the bottom, and it has expanded so it sticks up, making it impossible to get a flat bottom, so it probably wasn't a bad idea for you to skip it. I have leakage sensors in the space, but only pure flood sensors, so they require direct contact with the leak. I'm considering complementing it with a temp/humidity sensor to see if the humidity levels skyrocket and then have a solenoid valve that can be remotely controlled if a leak is detected.