I have discovered that the floor has started to sag on the upper floor just above where the previous owner removed a wall. Here's the situation:
The house is of the type: basement + two floors, large chimney in the middle, and built in 1931. On the northern part, there were originally two rooms on the ground floor divided by a standing plank wall. On the floor above, it was one large room. The previous owner decided he wanted the opposite, which resulted in a large living room on the ground floor with a large open portal in the middle with about 30 cm of wall left on both sides. He cut off the planks a bit below the ceiling and enclosed them. On the upper floor, he built a partition wall so that it formed two bedrooms.
I am now renovating one of the bedrooms on the upper floor and now see that it has begun to gap between the skirting board and the floor. At most, maybe a cm or a little more. The floor has started to sag due to the lack of reinforcement when the wall was removed on the lower floor. However, there are no visible signs of sagging on the lower floor. The newer wall on the upper floor has so little (no) support now, so it is more hanging which can be seen if you look at the ceiling strip.
I can see that it has sagged even before we bought the house from the paint, but also that it has sagged more since the strip in one of the rooms was last painted. The fact that we have had a large bookshelf against this wall has probably not improved the situation.
Okay, the questions:
How worried should I be? What has happened has happened over 4-5 years, so it's not happening quickly.
Should I complain to the previous owner? It might happen that I have to sell the house later, and then I would be responsible.
If I should do something about it, like place an I-beam on standing glulam beams or something, can one only stop what has settled or can one even press back the damage?
Incredibly grateful for answers!
Asterix
The house is of the type: basement + two floors, large chimney in the middle, and built in 1931. On the northern part, there were originally two rooms on the ground floor divided by a standing plank wall. On the floor above, it was one large room. The previous owner decided he wanted the opposite, which resulted in a large living room on the ground floor with a large open portal in the middle with about 30 cm of wall left on both sides. He cut off the planks a bit below the ceiling and enclosed them. On the upper floor, he built a partition wall so that it formed two bedrooms.
I am now renovating one of the bedrooms on the upper floor and now see that it has begun to gap between the skirting board and the floor. At most, maybe a cm or a little more. The floor has started to sag due to the lack of reinforcement when the wall was removed on the lower floor. However, there are no visible signs of sagging on the lower floor. The newer wall on the upper floor has so little (no) support now, so it is more hanging which can be seen if you look at the ceiling strip.
I can see that it has sagged even before we bought the house from the paint, but also that it has sagged more since the strip in one of the rooms was last painted. The fact that we have had a large bookshelf against this wall has probably not improved the situation.
Okay, the questions:
How worried should I be? What has happened has happened over 4-5 years, so it's not happening quickly.
Should I complain to the previous owner? It might happen that I have to sell the house later, and then I would be responsible.
If I should do something about it, like place an I-beam on standing glulam beams or something, can one only stop what has settled or can one even press back the damage?
Incredibly grateful for answers!
Asterix
Member
· Västra Götaland
· 545 posts
By removing the remnants of the wall left by the previous owner and replacing it with a glulam beam, you can safely press back the floor structure.
Were you informed at the purchase that the seller had removed a load-bearing wall? - If not, it could be a latent defect that the seller is responsible for correcting!
I don't think you need to be urgently worried, but don't let anyone into the upstairs bedrooms... joking aside, you should address this as soon as possible.
Were you informed at the purchase that the seller had removed a load-bearing wall? - If not, it could be a latent defect that the seller is responsible for correcting!
I don't think you need to be urgently worried, but don't let anyone into the upstairs bedrooms... joking aside, you should address this as soon as possible.
Thanks for the response!
Here's the situation: We knew he had taken down the wall, but we assumed it had been done correctly. When I renovated the living room, I actually replaced some panels in the actual "smygen" in the archway and saw then that there was no beam. I regret now that I didn't react more strongly to this, but I've learned a lot about construction since then.
Two things are holding me back from starting to tear down and fix everything right now. The living room is the only room that actually starts to look finished. It's largely my own fault that I didn't take the wall issue more seriously, but it's still frustrating, and I have a 3-week-old daughter.
Do you think this counts as a latent defect? I hate starting a process for this kind of thing, but better that than us taking the hit.
Here's the situation: We knew he had taken down the wall, but we assumed it had been done correctly. When I renovated the living room, I actually replaced some panels in the actual "smygen" in the archway and saw then that there was no beam. I regret now that I didn't react more strongly to this, but I've learned a lot about construction since then.
Two things are holding me back from starting to tear down and fix everything right now. The living room is the only room that actually starts to look finished. It's largely my own fault that I didn't take the wall issue more seriously, but it's still frustrating, and I have a 3-week-old daughter.
Do you think this counts as a latent defect? I hate starting a process for this kind of thing, but better that than us taking the hit.
Member
· Västra Götaland
· 545 posts
Congratulations on the daughter!!! 
This isn't something expensive to fix, but it does take some time and causes some disruption in the meantime.
Contact a constructor and provide him with as much information as possible, so he can assess the situation.
But notify the buyer in writing about what you've found and ask to follow up on how you want to handle the matter. If you've conducted a property inspection, you should also inform him about what you've found... the time to hold the inspector responsible is two years, but you can hold the seller accountable for 10 years.
If you don't do anything, maybe the living room will most of all look like a disaster after a while...
This isn't something expensive to fix, but it does take some time and causes some disruption in the meantime.
Contact a constructor and provide him with as much information as possible, so he can assess the situation.
But notify the buyer in writing about what you've found and ask to follow up on how you want to handle the matter. If you've conducted a property inspection, you should also inform him about what you've found... the time to hold the inspector responsible is two years, but you can hold the seller accountable for 10 years.
If you don't do anything, maybe the living room will most of all look like a disaster after a while...
Absolutely incredible. I realized afterwards that I forgot to specify some questions, but it doesn't matter when there are people on this forum who can answer unasked questions anyway. Many thanks for the great answer.
I see that the inspection was done on 040212. Should I contact the inspector anyway? The two years have just expired. The more I think about it, the more the responsibility seems to lie with the previous owner.
In any case, I believe I have a better grasp of the situation now...
I see that the inspection was done on 040212. Should I contact the inspector anyway? The two years have just expired. The more I think about it, the more the responsibility seems to lie with the previous owner.
In any case, I believe I have a better grasp of the situation now...
Member
· Västra Götaland
· 545 posts
Use the inspector's expertise, if nothing else - appeal to his good sides - even if he no longer has any responsibility... Since the problems were covered with paneling, the inspector couldn't identify the fault without "destructive intervention" and thus it doesn't fall on his responsibility - but on the seller for "hidden defects." Now I'm going out to inspect - and I'll keep an eye out for demolished load-bearing walls!!!
It is doubtful if the inspector really needs to "dive" into the walls.
Interventions in the load-bearing parts still require a building permit if I'm not mistaken. The work must then be approved by a person responsible for quality. If it was done before the new building regulations, then the building inspector would approve it. So it's wrong either way. And probably a question of outright illegalities.
Interventions in the load-bearing parts still require a building permit if I'm not mistaken. The work must then be approved by a person responsible for quality. If it was done before the new building regulations, then the building inspector would approve it. So it's wrong either way. And probably a question of outright illegalities.
Just as LyckeK advised me, I have been in contact with a structural engineer. He says just like you poiu that this is likely a case of outright illegality. Such an intervention in a load-bearing structure requires a building permit, and I dare to bet the last standing planks in the living room that no such permit exists. He also mentioned that this type of violation of building permit regulations, which endangers people's safety, is really serious.
I am not fully up to date on the regulations right now, but perhaps the inspector should have checked with the building committee when he found out that the wall had been demolished.
I will talk to the building committee tomorrow and I am trying to get hold of our realtor for a conversation with him as well.
If someone writes a post about interest, I can provide more info as I become more informed.
I am not fully up to date on the regulations right now, but perhaps the inspector should have checked with the building committee when he found out that the wall had been demolished.
I will talk to the building committee tomorrow and I am trying to get hold of our realtor for a conversation with him as well.
If someone writes a post about interest, I can provide more info as I become more informed.
Cutting off a wall of standing planks a bit below the ceiling without inserting a supporting beam is truly an example of negligence and ignorance(?) that can have serious consequences. If it had been large spans, the upper floor would probably have collapsed immediately, and even if it didn't now, I recommend you to install a beam immediately if you are going to use the upper floor! (alternatively, prop up the joists temporarily while waiting for repairs)
Interesting question whether it's a hidden defect or not, I follow your explanation with interest!
/The Engineer
Interesting question whether it's a hidden defect or not, I follow your explanation with interest!
/The Engineer
Member
· Västra Götaland
· 545 posts
When I was out on an inspection today and saw the large arch between the kitchen and the living room, I almost started laughing... ;D but it turned out to be original from '75, so despite a small crack in one of the supports, I didn't have to hit all the brakes...
It will be interesting to follow this!
It will be interesting to follow this!
Status Report:
Spoke with the building committee. According to procedures, before making changes to load-bearing structures, one should submit a Construction Notification detailing how the load-bearing capacity will be addressed. This usually involves a simple sketch and choice of materials, etc. This was obviously not done in this case. The person I spoke with seemed oddly indifferent about this. -"I don't think many people report this sort of thing," was the attitude. Personally, I think both as a home buyer and seller, it would be a great advantage if not a necessity to have a paper showing that everything was done correctly. In any case, I'll make sure we handle everything properly when we redo it.
More importantly, on advice, I have contacted the real estate agent who sold the house. He was going to point out the error to the sellers with the hope that they recognize it as their fault and cover the costs. He mentioned that if they resist, it would be harder to get justice since it's relatively inexpensive to fix the issue. I argued with him that if you consider making it look like nothing ever happened, it would involve time-consuming attention to detail at the end, which will be costly. I have used smooth fiberglass fabric; it must be challenging to make it look nice when you remove and redo it, right? He estimated 5000-10000 SEK. Does that sound reasonable to you?
Spoke with the building committee. According to procedures, before making changes to load-bearing structures, one should submit a Construction Notification detailing how the load-bearing capacity will be addressed. This usually involves a simple sketch and choice of materials, etc. This was obviously not done in this case. The person I spoke with seemed oddly indifferent about this. -"I don't think many people report this sort of thing," was the attitude. Personally, I think both as a home buyer and seller, it would be a great advantage if not a necessity to have a paper showing that everything was done correctly. In any case, I'll make sure we handle everything properly when we redo it.
More importantly, on advice, I have contacted the real estate agent who sold the house. He was going to point out the error to the sellers with the hope that they recognize it as their fault and cover the costs. He mentioned that if they resist, it would be harder to get justice since it's relatively inexpensive to fix the issue. I argued with him that if you consider making it look like nothing ever happened, it would involve time-consuming attention to detail at the end, which will be costly. I have used smooth fiberglass fabric; it must be challenging to make it look nice when you remove and redo it, right? He estimated 5000-10000 SEK. Does that sound reasonable to you?
Member
· Västra Götaland
· 545 posts
Now we come to an important thing... according to law, practice, and other factors, you normally are not entitled to compensation to fix the error... this is a bit tricky... you only have the right to a deduction equal to the difference in price if the error had been known... that doesn’t mean you shouldn't try to get the money to correct it...
Did you get that!
Did you get that!
Ok!
So you're saying how much less the house's value would have been if the fault had been known at that time? I can see the logic in that...
But how can such an assessment be made? Who can make such an assessment? One might imagine that this could go both positively and negatively compared to the cost of fixing the fault, right? There can be faults that are considered value-decreasing from a market perspective but don't cost as much to fix.
As you say, one can hope that this can be settled without getting into formalities and instead simply reaching an agreement.
I feel emotionally that there's a difference between a hidden fault and a hidden fault that's a potential safety risk, but there isn't any law or precedent about that, right?
Another thing that you, LyckeK, are surely the right person to answer. Shouldn't a surveyor who notices that an obviously load-bearing wall has been removed ask for or obtain a copy of the building notice?
So you're saying how much less the house's value would have been if the fault had been known at that time? I can see the logic in that...
But how can such an assessment be made? Who can make such an assessment? One might imagine that this could go both positively and negatively compared to the cost of fixing the fault, right? There can be faults that are considered value-decreasing from a market perspective but don't cost as much to fix.
As you say, one can hope that this can be settled without getting into formalities and instead simply reaching an agreement.
I feel emotionally that there's a difference between a hidden fault and a hidden fault that's a potential safety risk, but there isn't any law or precedent about that, right?
Another thing that you, LyckeK, are surely the right person to answer. Shouldn't a surveyor who notices that an obviously load-bearing wall has been removed ask for or obtain a copy of the building notice?
Member
· Västra Götaland
· 545 posts
The inspector uses the documents presented to him at the inspection as a basis, he has no obligation to investigate anything and does not need to question their accuracy unless they are obviously incorrect.
At the inspection yesterday, there wasn't a single document present, the questionnaire was with the broker at the office! :-?
If the "balken" is clad and there are no other indicators, such as the floor sagging abnormally, or the floor moldings on the upper floor separating from the floor, or the ceiling moldings in the living room gaping, there is no reason for the inspector to believe it has been done incorrectly... :'(
At the inspection yesterday, there wasn't a single document present, the questionnaire was with the broker at the office! :-?
If the "balken" is clad and there are no other indicators, such as the floor sagging abnormally, or the floor moldings on the upper floor separating from the floor, or the ceiling moldings in the living room gaping, there is no reason for the inspector to believe it has been done incorrectly... :'(