Inflated invoice when the builder has ordered building materials
no, I write that it's speculation that he added 40%.......Sir Duke said:
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A markup of 12% is based on the information the craftsman provided to the customer. One can either trust this information or question it.pappskallen said:
If one assumes that the information is correct and honest, then I can only see it as if the craftsman is exceedingly poor at making purchases, given that the customer himself could find the same product at a significantly lower price, and this from the same building material chain in which the craftsman's supplier was included. Note, we're not talking about a quick purchase of a simple spare part here, but an order of 600 large building blocks (or whatever you call them?) at a cost of about 60,000 SEK. We're talking about a craftsman who negotiated (?) a "best price" that is 25% more expensive than what TS as a private individual managed to get from the same building material chain.
If, instead, one assumes that the information is not entirely correct, and that the craftsman inflated the purchase price, then it is unethical and perhaps even illegal.
Thus, as I see it, the craftsman either seems to be exceedingly incompetent, unethical, or perhaps even a fraudster. Regardless, it is definitely something that is reasonable to criticize, question, and discuss here on the forum.
Note, all this is of course based on the assumption that TS's information is correct and truthful.
We don't know that, of course. But the OP suggests in the thread's start that this isn't the only material that's highly priced, given his phrasing "Here is a price example." And it's worth noting that the material in question accounts for about 40% of the total material cost in the entire project.dudero said:
Additionally, what does it matter if other materials were "dirt cheap"? According to me, and apparently several others here, the OP has paid an overprice for the material in question. If I shop at ICA and then notice on the receipt that they've charged a hefty overprice on one of the items, which represents a large part of the entire purchase, I don't get less irritated just because I also note that they happened to have a special price on some of the other items.
You might see it as the construction company having it built into their pricing model that certain materials have a very high markup, and other materials are sold at very low or perhaps even "negative" markup (i.e., at a loss), all to ensure that the total price for all materials is reasonable and fair? That sounds like a very far-fetched explanation, and such a system adds nothing for the customer but rather decreases the customer's ability to see the real costs and determine if they are paying a reasonable price. And it would only benefit the company if it has something to hide.
If so much of a particular item is needed, why don't people ask what it costs?
So simple, what is the price per unit for these?
Oh, then I can buy them cheaper, is that ok?
Not defending outrageous markups, but one should ask a little!
So simple, what is the price per unit for these?
Oh, then I can buy them cheaper, is that ok?
Not defending outrageous markups, but one should ask a little!
Because large conclusions are drawn from a product example. Considering the number of working hours, it should be months between purchase and rechecking. It's like calling ICA with an old receipt and asking what the price is today. The store may have had a temporary campaign or something when the customer calls and gets the lower price.jimih said:
And several in the thread assume that the rest of the items on the receipt are also more expensive than otherwise and then draw "fraud" conclusions.
The whole thread is rather speculative.
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You definitely have a point there. It would have been very interesting to hear if TS asked the craftsman about the price and if he got any sensible answer.dudero said:
I have read all the posts in this thread at some point since the thread started and can't remember any such post at all. But of course, I might remember incorrectly, but in that case, those posts are still the responsibility of those individuals. Personally, I haven't assumed anything like that.
Yes, but why would there be anything wrong with that? TS highlighted something he thought was wrong or at least suspicious, presented a theory on the cause, and asked us what we thought about it. None of us here to my knowledge is a judge, and none of us has any such assignment in this thread. We can only speculate on what might have happened in TS's case and then argue for and against various pricing systems and whether certain setups are reasonable ethically and/or legally.
What do you suggest the alternative should be in this thread if we're not supposed to speculate about what might have caused the situation in question?
Interesting discussion. I have withheld about 40,000 SEK from the total invoice of 900,000 SEK, the "inflated" prices are about 40,000 SEK + VAT higher than what I could easily have emailed myself privately, I plan to suggest to the builder that we split it evenly, i.e., I get a credit of 20,000 SEK + VAT.
For those who want to discuss further, I respond to some questions in previous posts:
builder = craftsman, small construction company in the area with full responsibility for the construction
The prices of all items on all invoices to the builder, which were then forwarded to me, are inflated. This has been done by adding a percentage (20%? 25%?) to all prices. In some extreme cases, the "builder's prices" therefore became HIGHER than in the store! They have embarrassingly admitted this as a "mistake" and credited me.
I'm not discussing some kind of small kickback of 5% or so, I think the builder could be worth that if they buy a lot. This is a systematic markup to make money.
On the inflated invoices, the builder then added 12% for their overhead. To be sure, they have also invoiced all their hours, when ordering materials, etc., at 450 SEK + VAT. To be extra sure, they also charged for 16 material deliveries with the company vehicle at 595 SEK + VAT each. So I have paid for the item + markup + 12% + hourly billing + delivery of all items. It must surely be a record in greed...
For those who want to discuss further, I respond to some questions in previous posts:
builder = craftsman, small construction company in the area with full responsibility for the construction
The prices of all items on all invoices to the builder, which were then forwarded to me, are inflated. This has been done by adding a percentage (20%? 25%?) to all prices. In some extreme cases, the "builder's prices" therefore became HIGHER than in the store! They have embarrassingly admitted this as a "mistake" and credited me.
I'm not discussing some kind of small kickback of 5% or so, I think the builder could be worth that if they buy a lot. This is a systematic markup to make money.
On the inflated invoices, the builder then added 12% for their overhead. To be sure, they have also invoiced all their hours, when ordering materials, etc., at 450 SEK + VAT. To be extra sure, they also charged for 16 material deliveries with the company vehicle at 595 SEK + VAT each. So I have paid for the item + markup + 12% + hourly billing + delivery of all items. It must surely be a record in greed...
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Next time you need to do something with the house, ask the carpenter what he needs. Ask him to provide a list.
You call the company yourself and place the order, they deliver it. If there's a lot left over, you can just return it.
That way, there are no extra costs.
Plus, you are the one who gets the discount when you negotiate the order...SUPER EASY!!
So then we can stop talking about 12% and so on…..
You call the company yourself and place the order, they deliver it. If there's a lot left over, you can just return it.
That way, there are no extra costs.
Plus, you are the one who gets the discount when you negotiate the order...SUPER EASY!!
So then we can stop talking about 12% and so on…..
"Next time you do something with the house, ask the carpenter what he is going to do." That's exactly what I suggested we should do. The short answer from the builder was "it will be cheaper if we take from my construction firm." I trusted that.
It was a large construction, the material invoices are a thick stack about 10 cm thick. It is not possible to keep track of this during the work, when two builders cost over 1000 SEK/hour and are waiting for material.
Ideally, I would have wanted a fixed price for the entire construction. I tried to get it for about a year with different builders, but it was impossible. It involved an extension on an old house from 1923, a lot that can go wrong, I assume.
It was a large construction, the material invoices are a thick stack about 10 cm thick. It is not possible to keep track of this during the work, when two builders cost over 1000 SEK/hour and are waiting for material.
Ideally, I would have wanted a fixed price for the entire construction. I tried to get it for about a year with different builders, but it was impossible. It involved an extension on an old house from 1923, a lot that can go wrong, I assume.
Then you have a promise from him, as a professional and experienced contractor, that he procures materials cheaper than you can. He is bound by that. The law is very strict against firms because they are (or should be) at an informational advantage compared to private customers. I'm quite sure you have a case here. He has bluffed, and it's time to call him on it.
One can generally rely on the Swedish Consumer Services Act:
Not paying an overprice for the materials is undeniably in the consumer's interest. If the trader, whether out of inability or deliberately, causes the consumer to pay unnecessarily much, he has not safeguarded the consumer's interests. It is especially clear if he has also charged for making poor deals on behalf of the customer.Konsumenttjänstlagen said:
Now, I don't know the circumstances when the TS build happened, but one method that would have been possible here with me would have been to do it like this:
There is a large building supplies store here, which would have naturally been utilized. As a private individual, you can also set up an account there. You can negotiate a discount, which makes the prices only slightly higher than at, for example, Byggmax. You can order via email, fax, letter, phone, or directly in the store. If you have so much material that it becomes "a load," they will deliver it for free. But you can of course pick it yourself directly in the store if you want to. Additionally, you can return excess materials without any hassle.
You can set it up so that the builder can withdraw goods from your account. Then he can order what he needs, and you as the consumer receive an invoice once a week, so you keep track of the consumption. The builder doesn't need to pay upfront and doesn't have to worry about any warranty commitments.
This is very easy to arrange, and I believe it would have been entirely possible in most places in the country.
There is a large building supplies store here, which would have naturally been utilized. As a private individual, you can also set up an account there. You can negotiate a discount, which makes the prices only slightly higher than at, for example, Byggmax. You can order via email, fax, letter, phone, or directly in the store. If you have so much material that it becomes "a load," they will deliver it for free. But you can of course pick it yourself directly in the store if you want to. Additionally, you can return excess materials without any hassle.
You can set it up so that the builder can withdraw goods from your account. Then he can order what he needs, and you as the consumer receive an invoice once a week, so you keep track of the consumption. The builder doesn't need to pay upfront and doesn't have to worry about any warranty commitments.
This is very easy to arrange, and I believe it would have been entirely possible in most places in the country.