How was a property from the 1930s built? Give me tips for renovation :-)

MasSimon · 1 May 2018 at 6:21 PM

Hello! As the title says, the question is... What methods were used to build a multi-family house from the 1930s? What "surprises" can I expect?

The association has recently replaced the pipes, both electrical and water, so the bathroom is in top condition.

Currently, it's a one-bedroom - about 41 sqm with a separate - properly sized kitchen and a ceiling height of 2730 mm. The plan is to convert it into a two-bedroom with a small bedroom and an open kitchen-living room layout.
Some questions for the knowledgeable:

Ceiling/Floor:
- What are the materials in the Ceiling/Floor? Is there concrete under the parquet or wooden joists and sand/sawdust?
- How can I handle a floor full of sand and joists in that case? Lay floor panels and gypsum board and leave the sand in place?

- What can I expect from the ceiling? Can I attach joists directly to the ceiling for a possible ceiling lowering for spotlights, or should I attach everything to the walls? Is it unwise to lower the ceiling about 7-8 cm, and better to try to refurbish the existing ceiling that is currently in poor condition, especially in the hallway? Today there are rounded inner corners between the walls and ceiling.

Walls:
I have some thin interior walls about 100 mm thick. Hopefully, none of the interior walls are load-bearing. I am considering creating an opening for a door in one of the walls for the future bedroom. Is it okay to create an opening even in a load-bearing wall if it is reinforced somehow at the opening? Like with a steel beam/frame?

Electrical:
I will also be cutting new conduits for electrical throughout the apartment, as the current electrical is completely inadequate. Can these grooves be patched with regular gypsum plaster, or should it be a special plaster for old houses? I'm primarily thinking about preventing cracks with different materials over time... (This is also practically easier if I have a lowered ceiling since I can do the wiring in the ceiling.)

Share all your useful tips and information! I'll attach some more pictures tomorrow!

justusandersson · 1 May 2018 at 7:11 PM

The most common way to build apartment buildings in the 1930s, at least if it was a modern functionalist house, was with a load-bearing structure of brick masonry and reinforced concrete floors. Non-load-bearing partition walls were made either of brick (half-brick) or solid wood (tongue-and-groove plank). If it is the yellow house in the picture, then it is more of a house in twenties classicism. This may be reflected in a more old-fashioned way of building the floors, primarily. They could alternatively to concrete consist of a combination of steel and wooden beams. In that case, the ceiling underneath is plaster on lath (reed mat). The house in the picture has load-bearing walls of brick masonry. Thicker at the bottom and then tapering, though never thinner than a full brick. Brick walls are always plastered. Partition walls of plank normally have plaster on lath on the outside. Even if the floors are cast, the floors are probably elevated. Parquet floors are laid on a subfloor of tongue-and-groove floorboards.

BirgitS · 1 May 2018 at 7:16 PM

MasSimon said:
How can I handle a floor full of sand and beams in that case? Lay floor chipboard and floor plasterboard and leave the sand?

The sand and beams probably belong to the association, so without permission from the board, you should not touch them. Sand is good for soundproofing.

MasSimon said:
I have some thin interior walls about 100 mm. The hope is that none of the interior walls are load-bearing. I plan to make an opening for a door in one of the walls for the future bedroom. Is it okay to make an opening in a load-bearing wall if it's reinforced somehow at the opening? Like a steel beam/frame?

Such thin walls are probably not load-bearing.
You can remove load-bearing walls in that way if you get permission from the board and apply for a building permit/make a building notification.

MasSimon said:
-What can I expect from the ceiling? Can I attach beams directly to the ceiling for a possible ceiling drop for spotlights, or do I need to attach everything to the walls? Is it foolish to lower the ceiling about 7-8 cm, and is it better to try to renovate the existing ceiling which is quite bad especially in the hallway? Today there are rounded inner corners between walls and ceiling.

Be mindful of the original condition, as it is valuable if the residence feels period-appropriate, which it won't with spotlights and without coving (the rounded corners).
Do you know how high the ceiling is? Houses from that era can have fairly low ceilings.

When it comes to electricity, it's good to check if the wiring has been redone and what size fuse you have for the apartment before planning large electrical expansions.

Many of your questions should be answered by the board since you are probably not the first to do major renovations in the association. Also, familiarize yourself with the bylaws and any rule collections so you know what you are responsible for and what the association is responsible for.

MasSimon · 1 May 2018 at 9:43 PM

BirgitS said:
The sand and the joists are probably the association's property, so without permission from the board, you are not allowed to touch them. Sand is good for dampening footstep noise.

Such thin walls are probably not load-bearing. It is possible to remove load-bearing walls in that way if you get permission from the board and apply for a building permit/make a building notification.

Be careful with the original condition; it is worth a lot if the home is perceived as period-typical, which it will not be with spotlights and without coving (the rounded corners). Do you know how high the ceilings are? Houses from that time might have quite low ceilings.

When it comes to electricity, it’s good to check if it has been rewired and how large the fuse is for your apartment before planning large extensions of the electricity.

Many of your questions the board should be able to answer because you are hardly the first to do major renovations in the association. Also, read up on the statutes and any rules collections so you know what you are responsible for and what the association is responsible for.

Thanks for the answers!

I will of course discuss all potential reconstructions with the board and plan everything with them.

The building's electrical systems have recently been replaced, and I have a new electrical panel with 3x16 Ampere, so there is plenty of electricity, and I am a qualified electrician, so I can easily handle that part. What I don't have previous experience with is exactly which type of plaster should be used for the embedded conduits. Inside the apartment, there are old wires with few outlets, and a previous owner has supplemented this with sloppily clamped EKK cabling and outlets here and there.

I also thought it best and neatest to preserve the existing ceilings. In the hallway today, there is a lowered ceiling with 600x1200 Moelven panels that a previous owner built on a wooden frame attached to the walls; I plan to tear this down regardless of what comes there afterward. The ceiling height in the other rooms is 2.75 meters.

MasSimon · 2 May 2018 at 10:05 AM

Here are some more pictures from the apartment.

MasSimon · 2 May 2018 at 10:07 AM

J justusandersson said:
The most common way to build apartment buildings in the 1930s, at least if it was a modern functionalist building, was with a load-bearing structure in brickwork and floors in reinforced concrete. Non-load-bearing partitions were made either of brick (half-brick) or with solid wood (tongued plank). If it's the yellow house in the picture, it's more of a house in 1920s classicism. This could be reflected in a more traditional way of especially building the floors. They might consist of a combination of steel and wooden beams as an alternative to concrete. In that case, the ceiling underneath is plaster on reed (reed mat). The house in the picture has load-bearing walls in brickwork. Thicker at the bottom and then tapering, though never thinner than full brick. Brick walls are always plastered. Partition walls of plank usually have plaster on reed on the outsides. Even if the floors are cast, the floors are likely to be raised. Parquet floors are laid on a subfloor of tongue-grooved floorboards.

The house rather reminds me of the 1920s, as you mentioned. I looked at some pictures from the 1920s houses and they all look very similar to this one, especially considering the ceiling height and the small windows?

Anna_H · 2 May 2018 at 10:15 AM

Is it the kitchen that becomes a bedroom, or what are the thoughts?

It's definitely the most stylish to renovate the ceiling, that curve is charming. The ceiling height is not enough to build a proper loft, but a good way to get a lot of storage is to build a half-high platform for the bed with storage underneath.

MasSimon · 2 May 2018 at 10:41 AM

J justusandersson said:
The most common way to build apartment buildings in the 1930s, at least if it was a modern functionalist building, was with a load-bearing structure in brick and reinforced concrete slabs. Non-load-bearing partition walls were made either of brick (half-brick) or with solid wood (tongued plank). If it is the yellow building in the picture, then it is more of a twenties classicism house. This can be reflected in a more old-fashioned way of building the floors. As an alternative to concrete, they could consist of a combination of steel and wooden beams. In that case, the ceiling underneath is plaster on reed (reed mat). The building in the picture has load-bearing walls in brick. Thicker at the bottom and then tapering, but never thinner than a full brick. Brick walls are always plastered. Partition walls of plank normally have plaster on reed on the outside. Even if the floors are cast, the floors are probably raised. Parquet floors are laid on a subfloor of tongued floorboards.

Anna_H said:
Is it the kitchen that is becoming a bedroom, or what are the thoughts?

It is absolutely nicest to renovate the ceiling, that curve is charming. The ceiling height is not enough to build a real loft, but a good way to get a lot of storage is to build a half-high platform for the bed with storage underneath.

Yes, the bedroom is intended to become a small one where the kitchen is today, with an entrance from the living room (attaching an approximate picture..).

justusandersson · 2 May 2018 at 11:55 AM

The presence of cove moldings in the transition between ceilings and walls suggests a ceiling with plaster on lathing (not concrete). Do not attempt to rout any VP-pipes there. Nor in walls with the same construction. The only chance for such walls is probably at the very bottom next to the floor behind the baseboard. However, plastered brick walls can handle a routing. The floor plan that you attached is useless for assessing the status of partition walls. It's better to measure, tap, or test-drill. A plastered half-brick wall should be about 15 cm thick. A plank wall 10-11 cm.

BirgitS · 2 May 2018 at 12:25 PM

The kitchen and hallway floor are quite new, so you should check how they have solved the flooring there. In the bedroom, the floor should be reusable, but in the kitchen, you could replace it with a period-appropriate linoleum mat if you want. The parquet flooring must stay

ZipLock · 2 May 2018 at 12:35 PM

With the new floor plan, I think you'll have issues with the supply air to the kitchen.

Does any potential future owner really want a kitchen without a window?

BirgitS · 2 May 2018 at 1:01 PM

Z ZipLock said:
With the new floor plan, I think you'll have problems with air supply to the kitchen.

Does a potential next owner really want a kitchen without a window?

There should not be air supply in the kitchen.

In Stockholm, many people are converting kitchens with dining areas into kitchens with separate bedrooms in much the same way as TS is planning. Often, they open up the kitchen towards the living room to let light in from there, or have a transom in the bedroom wall.

Yaken · 2 May 2018 at 1:14 PM

I that case, I would probably remove the entire wall between the kitchen and the living room as well, creating a "modern" open floor plan and bringing in more light. That kitchen nook might feel a bit cramped if no light gets in at all.

ZipLock · 2 May 2018 at 1:17 PM

BirgitS said:
There should not be supply air in the kitchen.

Houses from the 1920s or 1930s very often have natural ventilation with both exhaust and supply air in the kitchen. The supply air is usually where the pantry was when the house was new.

Yaken · 2 May 2018 at 2:01 PM

Z ZipLock said:
Houses from the 20s or 30s very often have natural ventilation with both exhaust and supply air in the kitchen. The supply air is usually where the pantry was when the house was new.

It was also common in older turn-of-the-century houses, so you would get a cold pantry before the advent of refrigerators. Provided that no major changes have been made, it would then be to the left of the kitchen window. Now we don't see a picture of that corner, but it's probably already sealed, so TS probably doesn't need to worry about it. To ensure these old houses comply with the ventilation inspection (OVK), supply air vents are usually installed in the window frames instead. I also see that this has been done in one of the pictures.

Edit: In the street view, you can also clearly see that there seems to be a fresh air vent to the left of what is likely the kitchen windows.