I'm going to install a double patio door 210x140 in my house. It's an old log house from the early 1900s. The opening will be near the corner of the house and on the long side. Is it just a matter of cutting it open or does it need some reinforcement? I've read a bit, some say it's just a matter of cutting, and someone says it must be done with a sword/mystery ??? I don't know what that means....
Best regards, Anders
Best regards, Anders
Have removed the exterior paneling now and see that there was a door there earlier. But mine will be wider. Don't know if there is a carpenter nearby. But if I open up the old one, maybe I can see if it was reinforced in some way before. There will be 3-4 logs left over the opening as well.
Best regards, Anders
Best regards, Anders
I think you should leave the door opening the size it is!
Around an opening in a log wall, there are both studs that are standing planks inserted into grooves in the log ends and dowels that are driven into the logs from above, a few tens of centimeters from the opening.
Log walls generally work in such a way that you can cut any size openings you want, but after some time, the wall starts to bulge because it's not supported by any studs, and then the joint usually starts to slide outward because the dowels that prevented the logs from sliding against each other are removed. This process continues slowly, and eventually, a log starts to slip out of the wall. When various owners have realized their visions and removed the supporting frame piece by piece, it becomes impossible to renovate the house. Many fine houses that would have lasted another 200 years have been ruined that way.
I have worked as a carpenter and patched up old logs, so I know how badly it can go. Additionally, I have a background in engineering and understand structural mechanics.
The latest project was a house where someone had enlarged all the window openings. When I arrived, the upper part of the house was supported on half the length of the house solely by the window frames and some plank stumps that were inserted as filling beside the frames. The log walls between the windows had collapsed completely, and someone had hewn away half the thickness of the protruding logs to be able to put up boards inside.
The only way to repair it was to lift up the upper part of the house and rebuild between the windows partly with new logs. Doweling and inserting studs. It was a lot of work. Just because someone felt they wanted bigger windows.
Now you already have a door opening that fulfills the practical function. Then you should not cut it more.
Around an opening in a log wall, there are both studs that are standing planks inserted into grooves in the log ends and dowels that are driven into the logs from above, a few tens of centimeters from the opening.
Log walls generally work in such a way that you can cut any size openings you want, but after some time, the wall starts to bulge because it's not supported by any studs, and then the joint usually starts to slide outward because the dowels that prevented the logs from sliding against each other are removed. This process continues slowly, and eventually, a log starts to slip out of the wall. When various owners have realized their visions and removed the supporting frame piece by piece, it becomes impossible to renovate the house. Many fine houses that would have lasted another 200 years have been ruined that way.
I have worked as a carpenter and patched up old logs, so I know how badly it can go. Additionally, I have a background in engineering and understand structural mechanics.
The latest project was a house where someone had enlarged all the window openings. When I arrived, the upper part of the house was supported on half the length of the house solely by the window frames and some plank stumps that were inserted as filling beside the frames. The log walls between the windows had collapsed completely, and someone had hewn away half the thickness of the protruding logs to be able to put up boards inside.
The only way to repair it was to lift up the upper part of the house and rebuild between the windows partly with new logs. Doweling and inserting studs. It was a lot of work. Just because someone felt they wanted bigger windows.
Now you already have a door opening that fulfills the practical function. Then you should not cut it more.
Well, that doesn't sound very good.... but it must be possible to widen the opening in some way if you reinforce it properly. I've already bought the alrandörren too. If you remove the svärdet on both sides and then put planks on the outside of the opening on both the outer and inner wall and screw or bolt it together, the wall shouldn't buckle. Then you can insert a frame of planks in the opening itself or make new svärd and put them in?
Is this completely wrong or? And is the corner of the house the most sensitive place to make an opening?
I don't think it should buckle out, there are several logs left above the opening too but....
Feel free to share your views and suggestions.
Best regards, Anders
Is this completely wrong or? And is the corner of the house the most sensitive place to make an opening?
I don't think it should buckle out, there are several logs left above the opening too but....
Feel free to share your views and suggestions.
Best regards, Anders
When you make an opening near the knot, the other wall will be without support.
Sure, you can bolt standing 5x5 as followers on the inside and outside with through bolts in elongated holes that allow movement in the log, but we all know that there is frost on the bolts inside when it is cold outside. A cold leak like that is not something you want in a dwelling house unless absolutely necessary. In workshops and similar places, it's not a big deal with some through 16 mm bolts, so you can cut a bit more freely in the log there.
Surely there is a solution to figure out, but it won't be easy or cheap if it is to be good... if there were a simple, cheap, and good solution, I wouldn't be sitting here playing the pessimist.
Selling a wide door on Blocket and buying a narrower one is clearly the cheapest solution, even if you lose some money.
Sure, you can bolt standing 5x5 as followers on the inside and outside with through bolts in elongated holes that allow movement in the log, but we all know that there is frost on the bolts inside when it is cold outside. A cold leak like that is not something you want in a dwelling house unless absolutely necessary. In workshops and similar places, it's not a big deal with some through 16 mm bolts, so you can cut a bit more freely in the log there.
Surely there is a solution to figure out, but it won't be easy or cheap if it is to be good... if there were a simple, cheap, and good solution, I wouldn't be sitting here playing the pessimist.
Selling a wide door on Blocket and buying a narrower one is clearly the cheapest solution, even if you lose some money.
I don't know if the timmret moves much anymore either since the house is over 100 years old. But if I absolutely want to make the opening wider, is it better to take everything from one side or a little from each? And therefore widen? The house is also framed and additionally insulated on both the inside and outside, and then there's vertical paneling on it. So it can be concealed if you bolt it together.
/Anders
/Anders
Homeowner
· Västerviks kommun
· 467 posts
I wouldn't dare risk anything.
Heimlaga has solid knowledge in the subject and I would listen to him and the advice he gives. I am convinced that it will be the least work and least hassle to follow these tips.
Heimlaga has solid knowledge in the subject and I would listen to him and the advice he gives. I am convinced that it will be the least work and least hassle to follow these tips.
Hi Abel48! I think the most common approach for older houses is to build a small extension, where you install the patio doors. That way, no modifications are needed to the building's structure. However, the extension does require foundation, flooring, roof, ventilation, etc. So, it becomes a much larger project overall. The better!! Best regards, PerOF
Just because the house has stood for 100 years doesn't mean that the weight from the roof and possibly an upper floor disappears. I was at a multimillion construction of a log house, where the owner decided that 2 logs crossing the house should be removed, located on each side of a large glass section from floor to ridge in a 2-story house, (probably for aesthetic reasons) the wall began to sag in less than a year, which was solved with thick U-beams on each side of the glass.
The least you should do is get a skilled carpenter to give an opinion before you do anything, I think.
You can get the name of at least 1 skilled one in Dalarna if you send a pm.
The least you should do is get a skilled carpenter to give an opinion before you do anything, I think.
You can get the name of at least 1 skilled one in Dalarna if you send a pm.
Self-builder
· Stockholm
· 8 592 posts
A question from a curious person:
What prevents widening the opening and just inserting a new sword?
The only risk, as I understand it, is that there might be dowels that are currently embedded at a suitable distance from the old opening, and if you remove these, the construction could become destabilized.
But that depends on IF there are such, and where they are/how much you widen?
And then there ought to be other dowels in the wall, even if it may be difficult to know exactly where these are located - but a substantial gait/sword should stiffen the log wall as well then?
/K
What prevents widening the opening and just inserting a new sword?
The only risk, as I understand it, is that there might be dowels that are currently embedded at a suitable distance from the old opening, and if you remove these, the construction could become destabilized.
But that depends on IF there are such, and where they are/how much you widen?
And then there ought to be other dowels in the wall, even if it may be difficult to know exactly where these are located - but a substantial gait/sword should stiffen the log wall as well then?
/K
Expanding is not an option. Half the house is already extended from before and built with regular studs. But unfortunately, it's not in the part of the house where I want the door. I think it should be fine to widen since there was already a 90cm door there before, but now it will be 140cm. If you place planks on the inside and outside next to the opening and put in threaded rods straight through about every third log and screw them together to clamp the logs, I think it would take a lot for the wall to bulge out. It should be stronger than a tenon/mortise.
/Anders
/Anders
Self-builder
· Stockholm
· 8 592 posts
It will probably be strong enough, but maybe not as pretty/energy efficient as a gåt/sword?abel48 said:
/K
Dowels stabilize both ways (both across and along the log), while swords stabilize almost only laterally across the log and not in the longitudinal direction of the log? This means that if the dowels break, the wall that the door is in might not fall out, but the wall that connects to it at the corner loses lateral support.