I have a room with a 28 mm tongue and groove plank floor that I am considering replacing with 22 mm chipboard flooring and gluing a vinyl floor mat on it. The joists are spaced at 60 cm centers.
How will this affect the bounce etc. between the joists considering that the floor will be 6 mm thinner? Will the floor bounce more or are the chipboards sufficiently harder that they might actually be stiffer?
Do you have experiences with the difference?
How will this affect the bounce etc. between the joists considering that the floor will be 6 mm thinner? Will the floor bounce more or are the chipboards sufficiently harder that they might actually be stiffer?
Do you have experiences with the difference?
Member
· Norrbotten
· 3 390 posts
Why downgrade to chipboard instead of real wood? If it's a matter of it not being even enough, I would rather sand the plank floor than replace it with chipboard flooring.
There are a few reasons.norrbottenstorpet said:
1. Unfortunately, it's already patched, which is a downside, although it can be made to look okay.
2. It has been torn up here and there, and some boards are cracked or damaged enough that they need to be replaced. If you replace them with completely new ones, it usually shows clearly.
3. It's going to be in a kitchen, and as much as I love real wood floors, it's too impractical for us to have it in the kitchen. We want something that can withstand a good amount of water if spilled, is easy to wipe and sweep/vacuum clean. This point is the decisive one.
This will probably be the only room in the house where we actually remove the old, traditional wood floor. In other rooms, we will naturally preserve and sand the floors.
Back to the original question. Does anyone know?
Member
· Norrbotten
· 3 390 posts
I mean that even as a subfloor, wood is better than particle board, it is more durable. So patching, repairing, and sanding when necessary gives you a good subfloor on which you can lay vinyl flooring, if that's what you really want.
The only "abret" I can see is if it's sparse, i.e., if the gaps between the boards are too large. This could show/feel on the vinyl flooring if that's the case.
The only "abret" I can see is if it's sparse, i.e., if the gaps between the boards are too large. This could show/feel on the vinyl flooring if that's the case.
In what way do you mean it's more durable? Is it because the wooden floor is 28mm in this case and the particle boards are 22mm (6 mm more for the wooden floor) or do you mean more durable in another way?norrbottenstorpet said:
Yes, it's like that, it's a bit sparse. And they're not completely even, so you have to sand them. It's precisely because of the sparsity and unevenness that I want something like particle boards so it becomes even and nice with the vinyl flooring. I've considered masonite on top, but that would mean a lot of patching, resulting in seams anyway.
And then you can't forget that particle boards stiffen the joists a bit, unlike tongue-and-groove wood flooring which is flexible precisely in the direction the joists run, which is why there can be more give with plank flooring.
Member
· Västerbottens län
· 18 051 posts
With 60 cc on the floor beams, you won't have any problem with chipboard, the joist system might flex more.
Protte
Protte
No, I know that it's not a problem in that sense, but now I mean compared to a 28mm tongue-and-groove wooden floor.prototypen said:
I have a 28mm tongue-and-groove wooden floor now, and I know how it feels to walk on it. If I remove it and install 22mm particle board flooring, will I notice a difference for the worse or better, or will it feel exactly the same in terms of flex, etc.?
Member
· Västerbottens län
· 18 051 posts
IF you compare 22 mm to 28 mm, 28 mm is 62% stiffer/stronger.
Then there's chipboard, each part is wider and distributes the load over a larger width.
Tongue and groove wood has slight gaps between the tongue and groove so it doesn't behave as a single unit.
With chipboard, you glue the entire floor into a single unit.
Protte
Then there's chipboard, each part is wider and distributes the load over a larger width.
Tongue and groove wood has slight gaps between the tongue and groove so it doesn't behave as a single unit.
With chipboard, you glue the entire floor into a single unit.
Protte
Yes, that's exactly what I mean, that they both have their advantages. That's why I wondered if anyone had experience with the difference.prototypen said:
I guess I'll just have to install a couple of particle board panels and compare walking on that versus the tongue and groove boards. I was hoping to avoid that by getting a response from someone who knew the difference
You have two types of strength/flexibility to consider.
Firstly, how the floor chipboard and the floorboards flex in each section, i.e., between two floor joists. I believe it is somewhat even between 22mm chipboard and 28mm tongue and groove boards. It obviously depends a lot on the quality of the floorboards but also slightly on what brand and quality the chipboard we are comparing it to is, but there is probably less difference there. And this flex is likely a non-issue as long as the center-to-center measurement between the joists is a maximum of 60cm.
Then you have the flex in the entire floor structure, and here I am convinced that a construction with screwed and glued chipboard is much more stable and has less flex than a plank floor on the same joists.
Firstly, how the floor chipboard and the floorboards flex in each section, i.e., between two floor joists. I believe it is somewhat even between 22mm chipboard and 28mm tongue and groove boards. It obviously depends a lot on the quality of the floorboards but also slightly on what brand and quality the chipboard we are comparing it to is, but there is probably less difference there. And this flex is likely a non-issue as long as the center-to-center measurement between the joists is a maximum of 60cm.
Then you have the flex in the entire floor structure, and here I am convinced that a construction with screwed and glued chipboard is much more stable and has less flex than a plank floor on the same joists.
Exactly the thoughts I've had! But I wasn't sure and haven't tested it myself. Because it certainly feels like chipboards are much harder and stiffer in themselves. That's why I thought it might even out between 22mm chipboard and 28mm planks, but wasn't completely sure. Then I know that wide boards really stiffen up the joist structure.Mikael_L said:
Had it been about 28mm chipboard vs 28mm planks, the answer would have been obvious, but now it was about 22mm chipboard, meaning 6mm less material, so I was more uncertain.
Now I'm not 100% sure whether one SHOULD or OUGHT to lay the chipboard (in this case 2400mm long) in a specific direction on the joist structure. Whether you lay the boards with the long sides along the joists or rather in the same direction as the floorboards, but here it fits much better to lay them with the long sides across, as the floorboards lie, due to not having an exact cc measurement of 60 (it varies a few centimeters here and there so I would have to add extra joists in that case). And having them lying across as I had thought doesn't lock the joists in the same way, but on the other hand they are tongue and grooved and should be glued, so it should be tight enough, especially since they should lie on top of the joists where they are automatically compressed and pushed together under load. (It might have been a bit different on the underside of the joists where they are rather pulled apart).
You always get detailed and wise answers from you Mikael
You should definitely lay chipboard flooring across the joists; no other method exists. In your case, choose a manufacturer that states that joints can be made even without a joist under the joint. Check the installation instructions, for example.
To gain some advantage with the chipboard that makes it "win over" your wooden floor, you must use screw glue to attach it to the joists. If you only screw it in, it will likely not be a significant improvement over your current wooden floor. For chipboard or floorboards to provide additional strength against deflection in the joists, it must really be glued, as even 1 mm of movement spread across the entire span is probably enough to prevent it from acting as a new and stronger beam.
To gain some advantage with the chipboard that makes it "win over" your wooden floor, you must use screw glue to attach it to the joists. If you only screw it in, it will likely not be a significant improvement over your current wooden floor. For chipboard or floorboards to provide additional strength against deflection in the joists, it must really be glued, as even 1 mm of movement spread across the entire span is probably enough to prevent it from acting as a new and stronger beam.
It's really difficult to predict which is better without checking a bit more. The floorboards could essentially be heartwood from slow-growing pine, which is excellent. Such wood is never available for purchase today; instead, you might as well find some cheap wooden flooring made from sapwood, like rough tongue-and-groove quality. But there is, in any case, a fantastic range in timber quality, and an old floor could be made of excellent quality. However, chipboard flooring, together with screw gluing, will always offer a composite construction that significantly supports your joists. This will never be the case with a tongue-and-groove wooden floor.Martin_B said:
Member
· Västerbottens län
· 18 051 posts
I wrote that 28 mm is 62% stronger than 22 mm, but it's only the thickness that determines, if you double the thickness, you quadruple the strength.
I did not write that boards are 62% stiffer than particle board.
If now 96.5% of Sweden's houses manage with particle board with 60 cc, I believe another one will manage it.
Protte
I did not write that boards are 62% stiffer than particle board.
If now 96.5% of Sweden's houses manage with particle board with 60 cc, I believe another one will manage it.
Protte
Protte, I completely understand what you mean. But I think you're misunderstanding me a bit. I'm not worried that 22mm chipboard flooring can't provide me with a stable floor when I put them on my beams that are cc60. I know they handle that without any problems, as that's how houses are built today. It's basically the norm.prototypen said:
What I originally wondered is what difference there would be regarding bounce, in comparison to 28 mm tongue-and-groove plank flooring.
The reason I'm asking is that I have a nice stable 28mm tongue-and-groove plank floor that I was thinking of replacing with 22mm chipboard flooring to get an even and nice surface for vinyl flooring, something that would involve some extra work with the floor I have today. And I don't want to downgrade in terms of stability.
But now I've got a little more to go on thanks to good answers, so I'll be basing my decision on that.
Edit: Or was your post not directed at me? hehe, now I'm getting unsure
...I'm tired, long day at work.
Last edited:
I was actually thinking of adding extra blocking there regardless. It can only help to further stabilize it. The old cross-bracing probably wobbles a bit anyway, so some extra blocking will certainly firm it up a bit compared to how it is now.Mikael_L said:
Yes, I was planning to do that to make it really stable. However, I am pondering what I should do to completely prevent creaking floors in the future. But maybe that's difficult... it might happen no matter what you do, I suppose.