Can I tear down this wall? THE BOARD RESISTS - PART 2

[16386]

Then neither the board, external managers nor the construction/site service drawings could say if it is a load-bearing wall. Is it really the case that no one knows? Sounds very strange, I can accept that the board doesn't know but the manager? Or does no one have knowledge about load-bearing walls when building in Stockholm?

What do you mean by construction/site services? Have you obtained the construction drawings from the City Planning Office? In the building permit documents, there should be clear descriptions of the load-bearing elements. Then perhaps not everyone can interpret the information, but for a relatively modern multi-family house in Stockholm municipality, it should not be a problem to obtain the information. But it is your job, not the association's, since you want to make changes in the apartment.

 

[Claes Sörmland]

What does the regulations say about non-load-bearing walls, do I really need to hire an engineer to give an opinion to demolish a 10 cm wall?

Then neither the board, external managers, nor the construction/plat service drawings could say if it's a load-bearing wall. Is it really the case that no one knows? Sounds very strange, I can buy that the board doesn't know but then the manager? Or does no one have control over load-bearing walls when building in Stockholm?

The law is quite clear here, the Condominium Act gives you the responsibility for the maintenance of your leased apartment and thus you have great freedom (BRL Chapter 7, Section 12). However, the association's statutes may limit that responsibility so that the association has taken over the responsibility for, for example, the walls. Then you are not allowed to change them either, as the association is responsible for keeping them in good repair. But internal walls are probably unusual for the association to take responsibility for. Check the statutes!

You always need the board's permission for (BRL Chapter 7, Section 7):

1. interference with a load-bearing structure,
2. alteration of existing pipelines for sewage, heating, gas, or water, or
3. any other significant change to the apartment.

Taking down or putting up a small wall that is not load-bearing does not constitute something that the board needs to give permission for. (Unless the association as a whole is responsible for the maintenance of internal walls, then it is the board that has the decision-making authority over the wall.) The association may not expand this requirement through its statutes.

But you don't want to get into trouble and tackle a load-bearing structure without the board's permission. Hence all the advice to get consultancy help from someone knowledgeable.

But the simplest, as suggested above, is to saw a hole in the wall so you can see what's inside.

 

[AndersS]

What does the regulations say about non-load-bearing walls, do I really have to hire an engineer to make a statement to demolish a 10 cm wall?

You have the responsibility to ensure that the wall is not load-bearing, then whether you make the decision yourself or let someone with building knowledge do it is your own decision. If you are unsure yourself, it can be an advantage to have it documented by a company that performs construction work/engineering.

 

[SnällKyckling]

What do you mean by construction/site service? Have you obtained the construction drawings from the City Planning Office? The building permit documents should have clear descriptions of the load-bearing parts. Not everyone might be able to interpret the information, but for a relatively modern multi-family building in Stockholm municipality, it shouldn’t be difficult to obtain the information. However, it is your responsibility, not the association's, as you are the one wanting to make changes in the apartment.

Exactly, I have obtained drawings from the City Planning Office and to make it easier, I have marked my apartment in yellow and the walls I'm talking about in red. I can't see if they are load-bearing?
High resolution: https://ibb.co/f09nL5S
Floor Plan.png

You are responsible for ensuring that the wall is not load-bearing, then whether you make the decision yourself or have someone knowledgeable in construction do it is your own decision. If you are unsure yourself, it might be advantageous to have it documented by a firm that performs construction work.

How can I check this myself? I had an electrician and builder over, neither knew and referred me to the board. I emailed both the board and the external manager and got an unpleasant reply, but in short, they didn't know either.

The law is quite clear here, the Condominium Act gives you the responsibility for the maintenance of your granted apartment and you therefore have great freedom (BRL Chapter 7 Section 12). However, the association’s statutes may restrict that responsibility so that the association has taken over the responsibility for, e.g., the walls. In that case, you are not allowed to alter them, and the association is responsible for keeping them in good condition. But it’s probably unusual for the association to take responsibility for interior walls. Check the statutes!

You always need the board’s permission for (BRL Chapter 7 Section 7):

1. interventions in a load-bearing structure,
2. changes to existing sewage, heating, gas, or water pipes, or
3. any other significant changes to the apartment.

Taking down or putting up a small non-load-bearing wall is therefore not something the board needs to approve. (Unless the association is responsible for maintaining all the interior walls, then the board has the decision-making authority over the wall.) The association may not extend this requirement via its statutes either.

But you definitely don’t want to get into trouble by tampering with a load-bearing structure without the board’s approval. Hence all the advice to get consulting help from someone knowledgeable.

But the simplest thing, as suggested above, is to cut a hole in the wall so you can see what's inside.

Thank you, Claes! I have now checked our statutes and attached two sections that I believe pertain to me. As you mentioned, and I interpret it as "non-load-bearing wall," I have the right to make changes without board approval, without needing to hire a contractor and provide a statement to the board. So to my question, why did I get an unpleasant reply from them and the property manager? They wrote this when I asked if the walls are load-bearing:
"You have been approved for renovations based on the application you submitted. Wanting to come and do other things now doesn't work, friend. Who do you think you are to tear down walls left and right? As for the first question about reducing the bathroom door, the answer is simply no. Regarding the walls, the board doesn’t know what’s in your walls, we need a statement from a contractor, at your expense, for now it is not approved to touch the wall."

 

[Claes Sörmland]

Precis, I have obtained drawings from the city planning office and to facilitate, I have marked my apartment in yellow and the walls I am talking about in red. Can't see they are load-bearing?

High resolution: [link]

Floor plan.png

How do I check this myself? I brought in an electrician and builder, neither knew and referred to the board. I emailed both the board and the external manager and got an unpleasant response, but in short, they didn't know either.

Thanks Claes! I have now checked our statutes and attach two sections that I think concern me. It's just as you say, and I interpret it as "non-load-bearing wall" that I have the right to make alterations without the board's approval, without needing to hire a structural engineer and give a statement to the board. So to my question why do I get an unpleasant response from them and the property manager. They wrote like this when I asked if the walls are load-bearing:

"You have received approval for renovation based on the application you submitted. Wanting to do other things now doesn't work, my friend. Who do you think you are to tear down walls left and right? Answer to the first question about reducing the bathroom door is a short no. Answer regarding the walls, the board has no idea what you have in your walls, we require a statement from a structural engineer, at your expense, in the meantime, it is not approved to alter the wall."

[image]

Yes, those statutes follow the BRL precisely as they should, and the board seems not to know what they are talking about. Do not involve these people in matters they do not have authority over.

 

[justusandersson]

Neither wall A nor B is load-bearing. This can be determined by having seen the floor plan for the entire level. The slab consists of reinforced concrete, continuously supported on the walls separating the apartments and the walls surrounding the stairwells. There is a question mark regarding the exterior walls, but it is irrelevant in this context. A structural drawing (i.e., a reinforcement drawing) would naturally provide complete clarity, but it is not really needed.

 

[SnällKyckling]

Thank you for your expert answers! What might be in wall B then, why does it look the way it does? How should I proceed now, what should I say to the board that has "denied" me from touching the walls and requires me to send a certificate from a builder? I also asked if I can change the size of the interior door for the bathroom and got a no, is that the case?

 

[SnällKyckling]

But, why don't you just open the wall and take a look?
You can often see if a wall is load-bearing by seeing how it's built.

Dumb question but how do I open the wall ? Also, wall A by the ventilation has a closet on the side; should I take it down to be able to drill from the side, or is it enough to check from the front?

 

[Viktor.J]

Thank you for your expert answers! What might be in wall b then, why does it look the way it does? How should I proceed now, what should I say to the board that has "denied" me from touching the walls and demands I send a certificate from a structural engineer. I also asked if I could change the size of the interior door for the bathroom and got a no, is that the case?

Isn't it just easier to get a certificate from a structural engineer and move on so everyone is happy? Considering the information you have, it should be inexpensive. I had similar information and paid 3k.

 

[Claes Sörmland]

Obtain written permission (e.g., an email) from the board for the changes to wiring and ventilation that you need to make. Thank them for this and for the good board work, then cut off contact. They cannot condition the construction process after they have given permission, as there is no support for this in the cooperative housing law.

Since at least one board member is already behaving like a boor in communication with you, briefly thank them for the permission to change wiring and plumbing and then end the communication. Do not argue or confirm anything they write, no matter how incorrect. Their incompetence is something you discuss with the association's auditors or election committee in private with trust. Support other candidates for the board election.

 

[Nissens]

Stupid question but how do I open the wall ? Also, the wall next to the ventilation has a wardrobe on the side, should I take it down to be able to drill from the side, or is it enough to check from the front?

You can remove the plasterboard, then you'll see what the wall is made of.

 

[BirgitS]

I also asked if I can change the size of the interior door for the bathroom and got no, is that so?

Are you planning to completely renovate the bathroom?
But I don't think it will be good with a wider door because then either the toilet or the sink will jut out into the doorway and it usually looks strange, and sometimes feels like you're about to collide with what's jutting out.

 

[Krille-72]

The law is quite clear here, the Condominium Act gives you responsibility for the maintenance of your allocated apartment and thus also gives you great freedom (BRL 7 chap. 12 §). However, the association's statutes can limit that responsibility so that the association has taken over responsibility for, for example, the walls. Then you are not allowed to change them either, and the association is responsible for keeping them in good condition. But just internal walls are probably unusual for the association to be responsible for. Check the statutes!

You always need the board's permission for (BRL 7 chap. 7 §):

1. interventions in a supporting structure,
2. alteration of existing pipelines for sewage, heating, gas, or water, or
3. other substantial change of the apartment.

Taking down or putting up a small wall that is not supporting thus does not fall under anything for which the board has to give permission. (If the association as a whole is not responsible for the maintenance of the internal walls, then it is the board that holds decision-making authority over the wall.) The association may not expand this requirement via its statutes.

But you don't want to end up in trouble by touching a supporting structure without the board's permission. Hence all the advice to get consulting help from someone knowledgeable.

But the simplest way, as was suggested above, is probably to cut a hole in the wall so you can see what's inside.

Here, I must correct you for once if I interpret your response correctly.

You must actually read the statutes to see WHO is responsible for non-supporting internal walls. My experience says it's unusual for a member to be responsible for non-supporting internal walls according to the association's statutes, EVEN if there are associations where the member is responsible for just non-supporting internal walls.

 

[Fairlane]

Do you want to reduce the size of the bathroom door?
Here, accessibility adaptations might possibly cause issues? Note, I'm not saying that it is so, but possibly.

 

[SnällKyckling]

Are you planning to completely renovate the bathroom?
But I don't think it would be good to have a wider door because then either the toilet or the sink will protrude into the doorway, and it usually looks strange, and sometimes it feels like you're going to bump into what is protruding.

Hi, I was thinking the opposite since the door is 100 cm wide with frame, but oddly only 80 cm. So I thought of reducing it by 10-20 cm so that the bathroom fixtures don't stick out. But I got a short answer, no. I believe there is a new law regarding handicap accessibility for toilet doors and in this matter, they might be right.

Right now it just feels generally bothersome to ask the association when they have such an aggressive tone.